I believe I have an Ich outbreak...quite shocked!!

[slojmn]

First casualty in the tank transfer method. My Candy Basslet perished today. I think he just never felt comfortable in the QT with the bigger fish and he wouldn't eat and I guess the stress was too much for him. He had no outward signs of ich through this whole process. I've had him for quite a few years. I'm sad. Everyone else seems to be doing pretty well. One of my Choatis is buried in the sand and hasn't been out for a couple of days that I know if. I leave way early and get home late, he could be out mid day. Hard to know. I have another tank transfer tomorrow morning. I'll see him then but he won't be happy to be disturbed. I'm cycling my garage tank in hopes that I can get them all moved over eventually. This is a challenging process with the delicate, needy fish.

 

[Deinonych]

Sorry for your loss.

Hope the others pull through for you.

 

[slojmn]

Update time. Well, it's been pretty good overall but I did lose my Black Tang. I went away for a trip and while I was gone the tub seemed to get very cloudy, a sign of over feeding. My house sitter was on it and tried to save him with the help of my good friend, a fellow reefer, but to no avail. It was weird, no other fish seemed at all bothered by the cloudiness. All I can figure is the ammonia built up despite the addition of Ammo-Lock on schedule. I did find some cloudiness in huge tub after adding Ammo-Lock myself and wonder if it is overly concentrated at the bottom of the bottle and could that have caused a problem. She had added the Ammo-Lock a few hours before the Tang went down. Hard to know since I wasn't home to assess. As far as t he Ich goes there are only a few spots on the female clown so I suspect one more week of this should do the trick. I am waiting for my 60g reef to cycle before I put them in that system for the next couple of months. The Choati wrasse pair have been eating like champs in QT and snuggling up in there sand tray at night. All in all they have weathered this storm quite well. They don't look as fat as they did in the reef tank but they seem fine. Once they get back in the main display there will be tons of pods for them and the mandarin to gorge on .

 

[slojmn]

So, I have been doing this tank transfer for 2 weeks and 5 days. I am still seeing ich on my Clownfish. I am checking her very carefully on tank transfer mornings and she is clean as a whistle when I transfer her. By the end of the second day she starts to have spots and I once again transfer the pack on the morning of the third day. She looks way better and isn't covered, just some spots. I will continue this tank transfer until she shows no signs of ich on that evening of the second day. I figured it would be gone by now. I have gotten super good at transferring the fish with only drops of water from the old QT into the new QT, but somehow she continues to have signs of ich. No other fish is showing any outward cysts or signs of ich. They are all doing well and eating well including the Choati wrasses and the mandarin. My QT reef tank is not ready for fish yet so I couldn't move them anyways...just curious why the ich is hanging on.

 

[ca1ore]

Just out of curiosity, approximately how long was it from the time you initially noticed ich spots to the point that it became obvious and had spread? Looks from the thread that it was a couple of weeks? Reason for my asking is that I still suspect ich in my system, my Hippo shows spots, but no other fish do and it's been going on like this for a number of months .... so was just curious as to your timeline. Thanks!

 

[Deinonych]

So, I have been doing this tank transfer for 2 weeks and 5 days. I am still seeing ich on my Clownfish. I am checking her very carefully on tank transfer mornings and she is clean as a whistle when I transfer her. By the end of the second day she starts to have spots and I once again transfer the pack on the morning of the third day. She looks way better and isn't covered, just some spots. I will continue this tank transfer until she shows no signs of ich on that evening of the second day. I figured it would be gone by now. I have gotten super good at transferring the fish with only drops of water from the old QT into the new QT, but somehow she continues to have signs of ich. No other fish is showing any outward cysts or signs of ich. They are all doing well and eating well including the Choati wrasses and the mandarin. My QT reef tank is not ready for fish yet so I couldn't move them anyways...just curious why the ich is hanging on.

Something must be amiss. Tank transfer is about as close to foolproof as you can get with cryptocaryon treatments, since the trophont phase is very predictable. After nearly three weeks you shouldn't be seeing any spots, since there should be no tomonts or theronts remaining to reinfect the fish.

 

[slojmn]

Just out of curiosity, approximately how long was it from the time you initially noticed ich spots to the point that it became obvious and had spread? Looks from the thread that it was a couple of weeks? Reason for my asking is that I still suspect ich in my system, my Hippo shows spots, but no other fish do and it's been going on like this for a number of months .... so was just curious as to your timeline. Thanks!

It was about 3 weeks before it became obvious that I needed to do something. I started by just taking out two fish, after another week I knew I needed to do them all.

Something must be amiss. Tank transfer is about as close to foolproof as you can get with cryptocaryon treatments, since the trophont phase is very predictable. After nearly three weeks you shouldn't be seeing any spots, since there should be no tomonts or theronts remaining to reinfect the fish.

The only thing I can think of is some sort of cross contamination. Here is my routine. I have doubles of heaters and powerheads so those get cleaned with fresh water and sit dry for the three days until I re-use. The sand tub sits for 8 hours with fresh water in it then I scrub it and completely clean it up with fresh water, dry it and put new dry sand in and clean the sand. Once its ready to go I get it back in the new tub before lights out so the wrasses have their sand bed. I only have one air diffuser with a stone. I stick that in fresh water for 8 hours bubbling away so any parasites that might be on it are in the fresh water all day. Then I dry as best I can and put back in the new tub in the evening. All of the hiding plastic pieces are scrubbed in fresh water and left to air dry for 8 hours then put back in the new tub. Maybe this regiment of cleaning is not good enough. I am pretty fastidious about cleaning any container that comes in contact with the 'in-use' QT tub in fresh water and letting them air dry outside for a day or two before re-using. Any thoughts on the cleaning regiment?
I also noticed a very slight and small whitish patch (very different from the Ich spots) on the clown in question over the last few days, it is hard to see but definitely there. It's in her black area so noticeable. It has not progressed but made me worried about velvet but it is so slight that I am unsure and wondering if I am just paranoid. Every other fish is healthy and happy. For that matter the clown's behavior is completely normal, eating like a pig and swimming normally.
I need to continue the tank transfer regiment anyways because my QT reef tank is not cycled and ready for fish yet and no one is moving until the clown has no spots what so ever on move day.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Your cleaning approach seems fine, although I normally use some bleach as well just to be safe.

Perhaps the clown had something in addition to ich and that is what you are seeing now.

In your circumstances, I would separate the clown(s) and run the rest of the fish through a full tank transfer process. I know the extra work isn't what you need now, but I would want to be sure the other fish are clear. After that, watch them carefully for signs of any other disease.

You can keep the clown(s) in 5 gallon buckets and send them through through the full tank transfer process alone (heater and airstone should suffice). I would keep the clown(s) separate from the other fish for 4-6 more weeks to see what is going on. You might have to treat them for other diseases or with stronger meds.

Good luck, this sounds like a really difficult time.

 

[slojmn]

Thanks for the suggestion. I am out of materials at this point to create 4 sets of everything. Hmmm, what to do? I would need two more sets of heaters, powerheads and another controller. It's impossible to temp control without some sort of controller. That is the big problem. I have an Apex running the QT tub and I just put a heater in the new tub the evening before, run it then use a fan to cool it down to match the old QT tub then transfer everyone and put the new heater on the Apex...no way to do this with a 5g bucket in addition, temp would fluctuate all over the place between night and day.

I just went to check on everyone and as every other end of third day she has ich spots, they are pretty clearly ich, not very many but enough. So maybe I am doing this wrong. here is an example: I transferred all fish to new QT tub on Thursday morning, the next transfer is tomorrow,Sunday morning, correct?? I have done this now for 3 weeks and she keeps popping up with ich on the afternoon of the third day. She was clear for the last two days, clear as could be, then today they show up. Everyone else has been clear after the first week or so.

 

[Deinonych]

Can you post a picture of the clown fish? If you are following the TTM protocol, I don't see how it is possible for the clown to still be showing spots.

 

[slojmn]

I will try to get him in a clear container and snap a shot. Maybe it is something else entiererly. It certainly started out as ich.

 

[slojmn]

Well, it looks like something is definitely wrong with this clown, Not sure what we have going on. I swear this fish seemed clean on Thursday morning when I examined her in the last tank transfer. Then I noticed a little patch of whitish area, although that is not discernible now. These pics are the best I could get. Now I am concerned that everyone in the QT may have whatever this is. Although my darker fish, who its easier to see stuff like this on, do not show any of this stuff on them. Suggestions for treatment? I have some PraziPro which I've had for quite a while. Separating this clown from the rest is going to be really challenging due to temp control issues.

 

[Deinonych]

That almost looks like velvet, although given the timeframe I would think it would have killed the fish by now.

 

[slojmn]

Ugggg, I don't know what to do.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Thanks for the suggestion. I am out of materials at this point to create 4 sets of everything. Hmmm, what to do? I would need two more sets of heaters, powerheads and another controller. It's impossible to temp control without some sort of controller. That is the big problem. I have an Apex running the QT tub and I just put a heater in the new tub the evening before, run it then use a fan to cool it down to match the old QT tub then transfer everyone and put the new heater on the Apex...no way to do this with a 5g bucket in addition, temp would fluctuate all over the place between night and day.

I just went to check on everyone and as every other end of third day she has ich spots, they are pretty clearly ich, not very many but enough. So maybe I am doing this wrong. here is an example: I transferred all fish to new QT tub on Thursday morning, the next transfer is tomorrow,Sunday morning, correct?? I have done this now for 3 weeks and she keeps popping up with ich on the afternoon of the third day. She was clear for the last two days, clear as could be, then today they show up. Everyone else has been clear after the first week or so.

You can do this with just 2 additional heaters and an air pump with two outlets (or a single outlet and a splitter). The heaters will keep the temperature sufficiently stable. I would keep the 5 gallon buckets somewhere in your house where the temperature is relatively stable and the heaters should be fine. Cover the buckets almost completely with a piece of plastic to slow evaporation (I leave a small opening for air exchange as the air pump is bringing fresh air in). I would set the heater at 76-77 and not worry if the room temperature drifted up to 80 during the day.

It sounds like you have the tank transfer approach right. Are you making the transfer in the morning? Say between 6 and 9 am?

 

[slojmn]

I do the tank transfer every third morning between 5:30-6:00. On the weekends it is more like 7:00-8:00. I've got it down, the fish are usually sleepy and are quite easy to catch. I am cupping the fish in my hands as I transfer so I don't even bring any water with me.

Should I be thinking about some kind of medication treatment in the bucket?? I have a 50w heater and an extra air pump that i recently found, hopefully it works. I can get this all set up today.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

That almost looks like velvet, although given the timeframe I would think it would have killed the fish by now.

I agree, it does look like velvet in the pictures and you would expect that velvet would have killed this fish and probably others by now.

I will throw out a couple of thoughts to see what everyone thinks. If it is velvet, you are going to need to treat with Cupramine or something else (Snorvich mentioned it in a recent thread, but I don't recall the med). Treatment with a broad spectrum antibiotic might be a good idea as well in case you have a bacterial infection. Could this be the start of brook?

I wish I could say it is X, do this, but it isn't obvious to me. Let's see what others say.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

I do the tank transfer every third morning between 5:30-6:00. On the weekends it is more like 7:00-8:00. I've got it down, the fish are usually sleepy and are quite easy to catch. I am cupping the fish in my hands as I transfer so I don't even bring any water with me.

Should I be thinking about some kind of medication treatment in the bucket?? I have a 50w heater and an extra air pump that i recently found, hopefully it works. I can get this all set up today.

Look at pictures of fish with brook and see if that might be what is going on here. On a quick look, the standard treatment for brook seems to be formaldehyde. Like velvet, it seems to take fish down pretty quick.

I never had to deal with brook, so hopefully someone will jump in with suggestions if it turns out to be brook.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Ugggg, I don't know what to do.

I sympathize with this as it isn't clear. You might also try calling Live Aquaria as they have a lot of experience given the volume of fish they deal with every day.

 

[slojmn]

Could this have happened due to stress from tank transfer?? The fish is swimming, eating, and breathing normally this morning. It seems like the patch just showed up, prior to that I figured what I was seeing was the ich each third day. I examined everyone else, can't see anything affecting them.

I have Melafix and PraziPro for now on my shelf. Would it make sense to treat all the fish in QT as well as the clown in the bucket with one or the other? I should have the clown transferred within the hour, I need to get buckets and more air stones.

I'll check in with Live Aquaria, although they may not answer today.