I can't believe I am posting another thread on Ich!!

[Aquarist007]

hey cap, why not observe in hyposalinity? that's what i do, and it does no harm to the fish, but gives you a 99% shot at no ich after missing it due to "immunity"

I have always followed the 4-6 week rule for observation with no signs and have not wanted to add anymore stress to the fish. However I now can see some fallacy in that method
I think if I were to follow the treat and observe method I would want to treat with copper. I believe it is quicker acting on the fish then hyposalination allowing the fish to get over the disease quicker and heal

Have you had any success both treating a fish and getting a difficult eater to eat at the same time? eg copper banded butterfly fish.

 

[krowleey]

I have always followed the 4-6 week rule for observation with no signs and have not wanted to add anymore stress to the fish. However I now can see some fallacy in that method
I think if I were to follow the treat and observe method I would want to treat with copper. I believe it is quicker acting on the fish then hyposalination allowing the fish to get over the disease quicker and heal

Have you had any success both treating a fish and getting a difficult eater to eat at the same time? eg copper banded butterfly fish.

copper could cause you some problems in that area. copper puts stress on fish, and a picky eater could be tough. Garlic could help with mysis shrimp, seems to work quite alot. Hyposalinity is documented to reduce fish stress, that would be my first choice, and if you got a tough strain of ich, then i would raise my salinity and dose copper. The way i understand fish having ich without seeing it, the immunity of the fish, while it's body creates the slime coat needed to fend off the parasites, the gills still harbor the ich. Just like with eels and dragonetts.

 

[jenglish]

. Hyposalinity is documented to reduce fish stress, that would be my first choice,

Documented where? Hyposalinity is likely gentler than copper but is still stressful on fish, at least at levels needed to break the cycle w/ crypto.

 

[Aquarist007]

copper could cause you some problems in that area. copper puts stress on fish, and a picky eater could be tough. Garlic could help with mysis shrimp, seems to work quite alot. Hyposalinity is documented to reduce fish stress, that would be my first choice, and if you got a tough strain of ich, then i would raise my salinity and dose copper. The way i understand fish having ich without seeing it, the immunity of the fish, while it's body creates the slime coat needed to fend off the parasites, the gills still harbor the ich. Just like with eels and dragonetts.

In such a blood rich envirnoment like the gills, why does the ich not start to reproduce like crazy. It is also my take that fish usually secumb by the gills being overwelmed causing the fish to suffocate.

You seem to have the article at hand---could you post one documenting that hyposalinity is less stressful on fish. It would be good to have that posted on this thread too.

 

[krowleey]

Documented where? Hyposalinity is likely gentler than copper but is still stressful on fish, at least at levels needed to break the cycle w/ crypto.

it's all over this thread, with links provided but here is more.


There may be some concern that hyposaline conditions could be stressful to marine teleost fish, or otherwise potentially harmful. While this is true in extreme salinities, studies indicate that this is not the case in more moderate salinities that would be employed in hyposalinity therapy (Wu & Woo, 1983. Woo & Chung, 1995. McDonald & Grosell, 2006).

The effects of stress caused by capture, transport and handling is a major concern when acclimating fish, especially when they have been bagged for a prolonged period. Stress affects fish in two ways: it produces effects that disrupt or threaten homoestatic equilibrium and it induces adaptive behavioral and physiological responses (Wendelaar Bonga,1997). Osmoregulatory dysfunction is closely associated with stress in fish. This is recognized by an increase in osmolarity in saltwater species (Carmicheal et. al, 1984. Robertson et. al, 1988.). This can manifest in the loss of up to ten percent of body weight due to dehydration in one or two days (Sleet & Weber, 1982.). Reducing the salinity gradient between the water and the internal fluids of fish is effective in counteracting osmoregulatory dysfunction and other physiological responses to stress (Johnson & Metcalf, 1982. McDonald & Milligan, 1997.) With marine teleost species, this is accomplished by reducing the salinity of their environment.

Quickly acclimating recently transported, or otherwise stressed marine teleost fish to low salinity water will help them to recover normal homeostasis more rapidly. Marine fish are most sensitive to changes in temperature and pH during the acclimation period. Match these parameters in the quarantine tank closely to the shipment water, provided they are not at levels that are dangerous to the fish. Then the pH and temperature can be adjusted slowly over a couple of days to match the display aquarium.

Treating Cryptocaryon irritans

Hyposalinity has several advantages over the use of copper or harsh chemical for treating Cryptocaryonosis in fish. Hyposalinity is a safe and effective alternative that is non-toxic and does not cause stress to the fish when used correctly. Copper suppresses immune function and it is toxic to fish.



http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish

 

[Mentat]

Thanks for posting this article Capn_hylinur! After 47 years in aquarium hobby, it's nice to clear and refresh old concepts :reading:. Last month had a little situation during QT that could have become an emergency in a DT.

A healthy looking juvenile Holacanthus spp. from a very reputable source, came down with Oodinium few days after arrival. To add more fun, just as Oodinium progression was halted (fish very weak and on it's side), had to deal with a small infestation of Crypto and other digestive issues. Good thing is, she made it, and is currently riding out her medication days (Cupramine & Prazipro) and eating well.

Had I been asked during first couple of days after arrival, if there was anything wrong with this fish, would have answered no. I did learned a very expensive lesson years ago, so now, everything gets QT.

 

[krowleey]

Documented where? Hyposalinity is likely gentler than copper but is still stressful on fish, at least at levels needed to break the cycle w/ crypto.

eh no reply?

 

[jenglish]

it's all over this thread, with links provided but here is more.


There may be some concern that hyposaline conditions could be stressful to marine teleost fish, or otherwise potentially harmful. While this is true in extreme salinities, studies indicate that this is not the case in more moderate salinities that would be employed in hyposalinity therapy (Wu & Woo, 1983. Woo & Chung, 1995. McDonald & Grosell, 2006).

I'm not debating that it is safer than copper, but there is disagreement on it being lower stress, from the Steven Pro link.
"One of the alleged benefits of this treatment is the resulting conservation of energy for the affected fish. Reef fish have to constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection (Kollman, 1998 and Bartelme, 2001). On the contrary, keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure and kill the fish (Shimek, pers. comm..)"

I'm not saying it is settled, but it is a debated topic. While there are a great many things I disagree with Dr. Shimek on, this is one we are in agreement. If constant hypo were a cure all then I would think we would see more FO tanks running 16 ppt constantly.

And as to the "no reply comment" I do not live on RC. It appears you are more interested in arguing than discussing and so this will be my last reply in this thread. Have fun.

 

[krowleey]

I'm not debating that it is safer than copper, but there is disagreement on it being lower stress, from the Steven Pro link.
"One of the alleged benefits of this treatment is the resulting conservation of energy for the affected fish. Reef fish have to constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection (Kollman, 1998 and Bartelme, 2001). On the contrary, keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure and kill the fish (Shimek, pers. comm..)"

I'm not saying it is settled, but it is a debated topic. While there are a great many things I disagree with Dr. Shimek on, this is one we are in agreement. If constant hypo were a cure all then I would think we would see more FO tanks running 16 ppt constantly.

And as to the "no reply comment" I do not live on RC. It appears you are more interested in arguing than discussing and so this will be my last reply in this thread. Have fun.

i don't see where it causes stress?? and who said anything about keeping fish in hypo forever? anyway all i see is long term problems, not 6 week problems. I have posted documentation that states it is not stressful, and actually reduces fish stress. who is arguing? everytime i look in the thread it shows you online, i was curious why you have not posted back after asking for the documentation. seems more like you refuse to take proof on this topic. You have a nice day now. :rollface:

 

[Hookup]

Thanks for the great info/summary. I'd read thru the links and references before when I was dealing with ICK and came to the conclusion that there was not way I could avoid it, with my husbandry practices.

I'm fairly certain that I have/had ICK. The white spots and scratching being the visual clues. After about 4 or 6 weeks the spots were pretty much gone, now after 6months i've not seen anything on the original fish... I have added fish, and most of them develop ICK within the first few days, though only one had it for more than 2 weeks.

Touch-wood, I've not had a single fish loss to ICK... I'm farily sure, because the only fish I've lost were from jumping, one from an elegance coral, and one from a rock-slide.

I personally believe that I have been lucky. Also, I try to keep my paramaters as stable as possible and I feed so-called quality foods, (marketing based analysis there... )

Just sharing my lucky/positive experiences that are in-line with some of the observations above.

 

[greenbean36191]

Everything I mentioned about immunity can be found in Burgess and Matthews 1995.

What I can't grasp here yet, is the concept that a fish can carry ich around for awhile undetected(still not sure how long) with the ich not going through its stages and taking over the fish in the tank by shear numbers produced.
I guess I can see it like cancer in some people. They carry the cancer cells for years, go into remission, and the cancer starts up again??

As has already been mentioned here a few times, the parasites CANNOT go dormant. It always goes through the stages. However, in fish that have been exposed to the parasite previously and developed immunity, only a few parasites are hosted. On average, the number is only in the teens or single digits (depending on the level of initial exposure), whereas an otherwise healthy fish with no immunity hosts about 330 on average. When you consider that >90% of the external surface area of a fish is in the gills, that means that in most cases when the parasite load is low, chances are good that none of the parasites will settle where you can see them. Even in the case that one does settle where you can see the nodule, chances of one spot going unnoticed are still pretty good. If you have 13 parasites on the fish (the average # from BM95 for fish with low-level immunity), one will only settle where you can see it about every 3rd cycle and 2 will settle where you can see them about every 4 cycles on average. If you have 7 parasites (the average for moderate immunity) the odds of having 2 where you can see them drop to about 1/8.

In such a blood rich envirnoment like the gills, why does the ich not start to reproduce like crazy.

Where the parasite settles makes no difference to the reproductive rate. Each tomont can only produce about 200-300 theronts per cycle (with the exception of one strain that produces much more) regardless of where it settles. Even when presented with fish who have no resistance, only 5-20% of those will successfully infect a host. In cases where fish have even weak immunity that infection rate drops to 0.06-0.05%, which prevents the population from growing quickly.

 

[Aquarist007]

Thanks for posting this article Capn_hylinur! After 47 years in aquarium hobby, it's nice to clear and refresh old concepts :reading:. Last month had a little situation during QT that could have become an emergency in a DT.

A healthy looking juvenile Holacanthus spp. from a very reputable source, came down with Oodinium few days after arrival. To add more fun, just as Oodinium progression was halted (fish very weak and on it's side), had to deal with a small infestation of Crypto and other digestive issues. Good thing is, she made it, and is currently riding out her medication days (Cupramine & Prazipro) and eating well.

Had I been asked during first couple of days after arrival, if there was anything wrong with this fish, would have answered no. I did learned a very expensive lesson years ago, so now, everything gets QT.

thanks --but I think credit for this thread should go to Krowleey

Its great you mentioned the case of oodinim with your blue angel here. I believe oodinium is another parasite or invert that can hide in the gills of the fish. I have a very reliable source for my livestock(acutually a partner) however and he gets his fish etc from very reliable sources, but from time to time we have had ich etc break out on fish--esp banner fish. I find these very problematic when it comes to ich

BTW
his main suppliers always suggest him to use Kick Ich---in the light of the information on this thread one can now figure how ich can still get in ones display tank without adequate quarantining

good job on the treatment and saving of your angel---people like you do a credit for this hobby.
Thanks for posting here

 

[greenbean36191]

As for lower salinities reducing stress, I'm not sold on Terry's case yet. At least two of the more important references in the blurb you listed from his article are about freshwater fish, though there's no full-text online for those, so it's hard to tell how well they really support his point. Another is about an adaptation to the kidneys that only occurs in a very small percentage of marine fish, so it's not clear that that one is applicable at all to our fish.

 

[Aquarist007]

I'm not debating that it is safer than copper, but there is disagreement on it being lower stress, from the Steven Pro link.
"One of the alleged benefits of this treatment is the resulting conservation of energy for the affected fish. Reef fish have to constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection (Kollman, 1998 and Bartelme, 2001). On the contrary, keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure and kill the fish (Shimek, pers. comm..)"

I'm not saying it is settled, but it is a debated topic. While there are a great many things I disagree with Dr. Shimek on, this is one we are in agreement. If constant hypo were a cure all then I would think we would see more FO tanks running 16 ppt constantly.

And as to the "no reply comment" I do not live on RC. It appears you are more interested in arguing than discussing and so this will be my last reply in this thread. Have fun.

Jenglish please don't take this discussion personally. I would like to see this thread carry on rather then end up like most of the other threads on ich here--shut down due to hostilities.
Then I can't control this anymore then I can control nature:lol:

I and other reefers here appreciate your contributions and hope you will continue on this thread.
For the other reefers here are the links to the Steven Pro articles suggested in the above post:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

 

[Aquarist007]

Everything I mentioned about immunity can be found in Burgess and Matthews 1995.


As has already been mentioned here a few times, the parasites CANNOT go dormant. It always goes through the stages. However, in fish that have been exposed to the parasite previously and developed immunity, only a few parasites are hosted. On average, the number is only in the teens or single digits (depending on the level of initial exposure), whereas an otherwise healthy fish with no immunity hosts about 330 on average. When you consider that >90% of the external surface area of a fish is in the gills, that means that in most cases when the parasite load is low, chances are good that none of the parasites will settle where you can see them. Even in the case that one does settle where you can see the nodule, chances of one spot going unnoticed are still pretty good. If you have 13 parasites on the fish (the average # from BM95 for fish with low-level immunity), one will only settle where you can see it about every 3rd cycle and 2 will settle where you can see them about every 4 cycles on average. If you have 7 parasites (the average for moderate immunity) the odds of having 2 where you can see them drop to about 1/8.


Where the parasite settles makes no difference to the reproductive rate. Each tomont can only produce about 200-300 theronts per cycle (with the exception of one strain that produces much more) regardless of where it settles. Even when presented with fish who have no resistance, only 5-20% of those will successfully infect a host. In cases where fish have even weak immunity that infection rate drops to 0.06-0.05%, which prevents the population from growing quickly.

Thanks Dr. Greenbean.
If the theronts can't infect the fish do they die off or not swim to the next fish and so on? I am trying to come to grips with a tank situation where there are no signs of visible ich for over a year and an infection is suddently apparant? Is this explained by the fact that ich can continue to cycle for a very long time on the immune host which is equally confusing with timelimits for ich to die out that have been posted here.

 

[blennielove]

Thanks EVERYONE for putting this information forward!
I'm dealing with ich now and it is NOT FUN!
Lesson learned - Quarantine is a MuST!

 

[Aquarist007]

Thanks EVERYONE for putting this information forward!
I'm dealing with ich now and it is NOT FUN!
Lesson learned - Quarantine is a MuST!

Please read this thread for practical ways of dealing with ich

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1500214

 

[Psionicdragon]

Awhile ago, there was another member of RC that was doing an experiment to get rid of his ick in his DT and QT. I believe his name was ClownTrigger or something.

Anyway, from following that thread, it seems like he tried all the method. Eventually ick was present even after following all the protocols in eradicating ick.

I am not an expert, but I follow the process in dealing with ick since that has always been an issue for me. Is it for sure that the ick does not become dormant at all?

A year or two ago when I had my 300, I hypo the whole tank for nearly 3 months. Afterwards, I decided to raise the salinity back to what it used to be. After a few days, Ick was present again and in a few weeks, I lost over 10k worth of fishes. So there isn't any explanation that I can give.

I am about to start a hospital tank because somehow I got a strand of ick.

 

[Aquarist007]

Awhile ago, there was another member of RC that was doing an experiment to get rid of his ick in his DT and QT. I believe his name was ClownTrigger or something.

Anyway, from following that thread, it seems like he tried all the method. Eventually ick was present even after following all the protocols in eradicating ick.

I am not an expert, but I follow the process in dealing with ick since that has always been an issue for me. Is it for sure that the ick does not become dormant at all?

A year or two ago when I had my 300, I hypo the whole tank for nearly 3 months. Afterwards, I decided to raise the salinity back to what it used to be. After a few days, Ick was present again and in a few weeks, I lost over 10k worth of fishes. So there isn't any explanation that I can give.

I am about to start a hospital tank because somehow I got a strand of ick.

was your tank fishless the whole time
hypo salination has to be exactly 1.009 and higher and it might not be effective.

 

[Psionicdragon]

was your tank fishless the whole time
hypo salination has to be exactly 1.009 and higher and it might not be effective.

I had a FOWLR and I did a hospital tank before. I even had salinity as low as 1.008. I did cupramine too with seachem's screwed up test kit that wiped out a load of fish.