I don't do water changes

Here's some more on trace elements

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/9/aafeature

The results of this study demonstrate that the vast majority of synthetic sea salts for use in marine aquaria do not have concentrations of the trace elements examined that are substantially greater than that of the natural seawater available to the marine hobbyist. Furthermore, for some trace elements natural seawater had a greater value than some of the synthetic sea salts. Moreover, Catalina Water Company, which is a natural seawater product, had a lead value that was one to two orders of magnitude higher than other samples. It is clear that most synthetic sea salts do not add substantial amounts of trace levels to aquaria when compared to the natural seawater available to the majority of hobbyists.

So lets say like most people you use a 5 gallon bucket for a 50 gallon system so it turns out to be about a 10% change, diluted down you're adding in a tiny amount of trace elements and you will never be at the same levels you were at the start. Not to mention, NSW and the trace elements found in synthetic salt are pretty different anyway.
 
Good point, we should be using natural seawater if we can... But for those of us who can't then water changes are needed. Also, I believe it was mentioned that smaller more frequent changes are better, frequent changes would add more of the trace elements we are looking for... I went a month without doing a water change and my tank looked like crap...
 
No, if you read the article, using NSW has it's own problems.

There's probably ancillary reasons why your tank looked like crap, it sounds like general neglect.
 
Lol, neglect was not the issue.

Really though? If you put a system in place to remove the nutrients and replenish lost elements, it would not have looked like crap. If you don't have this system in place and you don't do water changes, that is neglect.

I use a lot of chaeto, GFO, huge skimmer and filter socks to remove nutrients. The tank is BB and has 9,000gph flow so barely anything settles. What does settle get syphoned into the filter sock before changing. The only water which gets replaced in my tank is from water lost from cleaning equipment or changing media. Occasionally I will do a large water change to remove a medication. Over the last year, I have changed 75 gallons of water total from a system volume over 100 gallons and still have <0.03ppm phosphate and <0.1ppm nitrate.

Regular water changes add unnecessary stress to the animals.
 
No, if you read the article, using NSW has it's own problems.

All of which are readily avoided by a little common sense when it comes to collecting that NSW for use ;) Keep in mind, that article was written by two people who were working at the time for a company that manufactures artificial salt mix ;)
 
Really though? If you put a system in place to remove the nutrients and replenish lost elements, it would not have looked like crap. If you don't have this system in place and you don't do water changes, that is neglect.

I use a lot of chaeto, GFO, huge skimmer and filter socks to remove nutrients. The tank is BB and has 9,000gph flow so barely anything settles. What does settle get syphoned into the filter sock before changing. The only water which gets replaced in my tank is from water lost from cleaning equipment or changing media. Occasionally I will do a large water change to remove a medication. Over the last year, I have changed 75 gallons of water total from a system volume over 100 gallons and still have <0.03ppm phosphate and <0.1ppm nitrate.

Regular water changes add unnecessary stress to the animals.
And do you know what I have setup in my tank?
 
Really though? If you put a system in place to remove the nutrients and replenish lost elements, it would not have looked like crap. If you don't have this system in place and you don't do water changes, that is neglect.

I use a lot of chaeto, GFO, huge skimmer and filter socks to remove nutrients. The tank is BB and has 9,000gph flow so barely anything settles. What does settle get syphoned into the filter sock before changing. The only water which gets replaced in my tank is from water lost from cleaning equipment or changing media. Occasionally I will do a large water change to remove a medication. Over the last year, I have changed 75 gallons of water total from a system volume over 100 gallons and still have <0.03ppm phosphate and <0.1ppm nitrate.

Regular water changes add unnecessary stress to the animals.

I also have chaeto, a huge skimmer, filtersock with carbon, ato from rodi reservoir and at the time I was dosing to replace trace elements... So please explain where I was neglecting my tank? For me water changes are necessary.
 
So it basically comes down to, we do the typical recommended 10% weekly water changes because that's what everyone's been doing for a long time.

Unless you're doing ~50% weekly water changes each time...

The trace elements idea is bunk.

The pollution diluting idea is bunk.

So why do we do water changes again? And how is it possible there are some very impressive SPS reefs in this forum that don't do water changes or do them extremely rarely.
 
So it basically comes down to, we do the typical recommended 10% weekly water changes because that's what everyone's been doing for a long time.

Unless you're doing ~50% weekly water changes each time...

The trace elements idea is bunk.

The pollution diluting idea is bunk.

So why do we do water changes again? And how is it possible there are some very impressive SPS reefs in this forum that don't do water changes or do them extremely rarely.

We have far too many questions and not enough answers to call an idea bunk IMO. While trace elements may decline they will reach an equilibrium above zero assuming they are being consumed and replenished with water changes. The level may be below NSW but perhaps that doesn't matter as long as some trace amounts are available. The same argument can be made for toxins that may buildup. The levels will rise and then reach a point where water changes are keeping the levels lower than in a tank without water changes.

The ionic imbalance that occurs due to 2 part dosing may also be inconsequential but it is a hypothesis I prefer not to test when it is of no concern if water changes are done.
 
Seems like there are a number of anomalies.

He has a very mature tank and an unsual filtration setup if you read his new build thread. Sort of a reverse flow setup. There are just weird things we don't know about coral reef ecosystems and what SPS actually need to thrive. I think our obsession with nitrates and phosphates might be misplaced or just accidentally correct in a small way that misses the big picture.
 
So it basically comes down to, we do the typical recommended 10% weekly water changes because that's what everyone's been doing for a long time.

Unless you're doing ~50% weekly water changes each time...

The trace elements idea is bunk.

The pollution diluting idea is bunk.

So why do we do water changes again? And how is it possible there are some very impressive SPS reefs in this forum that don't do water changes or do them extremely rarely.

This is simply untrue, and with a little bit of math, we can calculate where you will reach steady state at any given consumption level. In fact, I just had the same argument earlier this week, so I'll just re-post from that thread:



If we start with the assumption that our synthetic sea salts contain the appropriate elemental composition for our livestock (which I think is entirely reasonable, and if not you should pick a different salt ), and we accept that there are many things required by our livestock and that could potentially harm our livestock that we can't reliably measure for (trace elements, compounds form coral alleopathy, etc.), then a few things become plainly evident. 1) We cannot "prove" they are depleted without sophisticated laboratory equipment that can measure very small quantities of each compound reliably, 2) Even if we did that we cannot monitor all of these compounds to ensure they are within their required ranges cost effectively (i.e. we cannot reliably test for and dose them by themselves) and 3) No matter how their concentration varies while in our tank, by removing a proportion of the water and adding new synthetic sea water, we by definition move them closer to their target ranges.

Mathematical explanation. English translation below. Feel free to skip the math if you trust me or hate algebra.

With regard to your second question, lets do some math. Lets take a tank of some volume "V" and change 10% of the volume at some time interval and track what happens to our mystery trace element, call it element X.

Element X is kept at a constant level over time when the amount brought into the system by a water change is equivalent to the amount consumed between water changes plus the amount removed by the water change itself. Obviously, if the element is being consumed without replacement, it will have to achieve steady state at some concentration lower than the level found in your freshly mixed ASW (barring a 100% water change of course.) Lets say element X has a concentration "Cb" in your freshly mixed water (in the bucket) and "Cs" for the water in your system. Between water changes, your tank uses up some fraction "f" of that element in your system. We can then write the equations:

0.1*V*Cb = mass of element X added by a water change
f*Cs*V + (Cs*V - f*Cs*V)0.1 = the mass of element X consumed by the tank plus the mass of element X removed during the water change

By the law of conservation of mass and steady state assumption we get

0.1*V*Cb = f*Cs*V + (Cs * V - f*Cs*V)0.1

When solved, this leaves us with:
Cb = Cs * (9f + 1)

For explaination's sake, lets say the level in your tank is 50% of the level in your freshly mixed seawater (idk, just picking a number there).

We can then add the equation
Cs = 0.5 * Cb

Which when substituted into the above equation, leaves us with

f = 0.11

English resuming. Thanks for your cooperation

Which means a 10% water change will keep the level present in the tank constant when the amount consumed by the tank between water changes is about 11% of that found in your tank (assuming the level in your tank is at 50% of that in your bucket). Where that "steady state" happens is determined by the concentration in your salt an consumption, which is usually related to the concentration in your tank, so it gets more complicated than what I've shown based on a number of variables, but the concept is always true. I guess my point is, it's not nothing, mathematically we can see water changes have a non-trivial effect.

Finally, with regard to the statements regarding SPS tanks without water changes for years. Even if it is true, citing the exception to a rule when dealing with populations doesn't mean the rule is wrong, it just means you're citing the exception. My grandfather ate bacon and eggs every day of his life and lived to be 80 years old, completely able to move on his own and completely mentally in-tact -- that doesn't mean that bacon isn't bad for you.
 
although I believe in water changes I would have to think the only reason we don't see more "anomalies" of people not doing water changes is because it isn't the norm.

we are taught from the get go that we need to do water changes.

i would be interested in hearing from people who have been in reef keeping for 20 or so plus years. key word being reef, and not saltwater fish.
 
Also since you don't own fish you may not know that for some fish, constantly running carbon is not good for some fish and can cause HLLE. If you ask me it is way easier to make a batch of water and change 10% once a week or more biweekly than constantly monitor the salinity and amount of saltwater I needed on hand. You would need several holding vessels bc you couldn't mix saltwater in the same container you are flowing from bc it needs to mix and have the salinity pinpointed before it could make it into your system.

Also if you think needing a weekly water change somehow indicates your tank is I trouble then I would think needing what amounts to a constant water change would indicate a bigger issue.

Another issue to think about is the more pumps you have, the more places you have to fail. In fresh water that wouldn't be as big of a worry, but in saltwater you would need to ensure your water level would drop low enough to trigger your ato etc. Managing salinity could become a real nightmare.

It is very easy to come into this hobby and think you are going to have the epiphany that will somehow make it easier. "Everyone" does it this way bc it works, if there were short cuts that worked long term that would just be how it was done. In my experience saltwater concepts seem to be easier for people who didnt do freshwater first.

Glad you are thinking about how to make improvements though. I guess that is how we make advances.

there is ABSOLUTELY no proven link between carbon use and hlle, other than a certain hobby author's anecdotal and limited experience w/ both.

HLLE is a SYMPTOM of any of a myriad of possible causes. i've seen it caused by fluke damage and subsequent 'infection' of the skin, and i've seen fish reverse 'hlle' completely in very heavy carbon use systems.

carbon is to hlle what garlic is to ich-nothing but 'urban legends' based on mere impressions of one or a few individuals, w/ absolutley no causal relationship proof between one and the other, turned into 'gospel' by hordes of 'bandwagon followers'. ;)
 
Everyone,

I have been in the fresh-water hobby for 45 years, in planted tanks since the early 80s, but in salt water such a short time that I don't own any fish or corals yet. Just a 90 gallon tank with some live rock and apitasia. :xlbirthday:

That said, I stopped doing water changes a number of years ago. And I did not stop because I am a lazy bum (although I don't deny the charge). I stopped because a water change is an admission that you are doing something wrong. A water change means your fish don't live in optimal conditions all the time, just right after the water change. A water change, especially a big one, is very stressful for the animals.

So I changed my practices so that my nitrates are never out of range, and my phosphates are never out of range, and my tank always has the micro nutrients that it needs, and therefore there is no reason to stress everybody out by doing a water change.

I use bio-remediation, denitrators, GFO reactors, activated carbon. On salt water you guys have this cool thing called a skimmer. What a great thing for getting rid of DOC! I could not be happier.

So, I know this is controversial, but I don't think a water change every week is something to be proud of.


for someone that''s been keeping closed system environments for awhile, you seem to understand very little about the biological and environmental dynamics of aquaria. ;)

water changes are multi-purposeful. they both remove waste substances, and replenish certain elements of the water mix to be replenished.



fwiw-weekly isn't necessary, nor is it anywhere near an 'admission' of anything.

if it(water changes) was an admission of any kind, it would be that one is doing something absolutely right and correct.

how many waste products are produced in a closed aquatic system, and how many are 'sinkable' (e.g. phosphate bonding to calcium, or ferrous oxide, is a 'sink' for PO4, as it chemically removes it/ neutralizes it from the system) that you are aware of ?

how do you remove the ones that aren't 'sinkable' ? food for thought ;)

if you're aware of the concept of letting some 'fresh air' into a room by opening a window, it should be painfully obvious what benefits water changes provide.

for the actual math of what % wc removes what amount of 'garbage', this link explains things rather well

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_brightbill_wc.html

note that the garbage discussed in the article deals with some of the more well know and obvious waste products. there are certainly dozens more compounds, if not hundreds/thousands-albumens and phenols, terpenes first come to mind).

skimmers do NOT remove all doc's, btw. ;)
 
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