I just can't win with Nitrates

Mock said:
I did just skim this thread but overall, it almost sounds like you mess with too much, blowing rocks off, changing things around, sounds like your hands are always in this tank. The KISS method works perfect.

Shallow Sand Bed or Deep, Lots of rock or not, dosing or not, enough flow or not, if you will step back and go through things one at a time, you will find the culprit. Over feeding, too much moving stuff, not enough flow in areas, RODI water, start a check list and start marking them off one a week not all in a day.

Nothing happens fast in this hobby.
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I do mess with it to often. But , the only way i know how to clean any detritus is keep on them.
 
It sounds like you need to do larger water change, when you are changing less than 10% you will not be able to reduce them by 10% so if your nitrates are 4 they will not drop to 3 or lower from that water change... If you did 10 gallons once a week rather than 5 twice you are changing almost 20%. After you get them reduced twice a week may be ok. Slow your feeding a little. You should think about getting some more rock, Marco rock is great and light. Try to leave the sand and rock alone, if something is on coral blast it but otherwise let it settle, when you disturb it, it becomes suspended in the water column.
 
Less food in.... half a cube to 3 small fish twice a day is probably an issue, one is a 6 line which eat pods and other critters mainly. I don't trust auto feeders, especially loaded with pellets. If you dont already do so you might have to rinse your frozen cubes with tap water before you feed. Good luck and also look into a product from thrive called bio stimulant. I use and it makes your skimmer cup full in half the time. 20 bucks and it would last you months.
 
also if it makes you feel better, 20-30 is not too bad
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I don't think my nitrates were ever that low. I just go out to dinner, have a nice glass of Merlot and forget about it. :dance:
 
Good luck. I finally gave up and went to carbon dosing. Tried so many things, it would take a small book to list them all. Started with the basics and went on and on and on.

Started using NOPOX, it took about 2 months for it to really kick in, now with a small daily dose, I stay close to zero with no issues. I add amino acids twice a week and things have never looked better.
 
3 small fish should be 1/2 cube daily, not twice a day...its too much food.

You can also try doing daily Microbacter7 and see if that helps. You shouldn't be needing to go through that much salt to keep it under control. Its just a nutrient misbalance...its not something that dosing vodka should fix. Its a fundamental misbalance. Use MB7 to get it down to about 3-5ppm, then cut back on the feedings and it should keep under control.
 
kissman said:
I really appreciate everybody's advice a lot of it makes since i just need to figure out what to try. I might have more rock in the shed that i could cycle and add to my sump i will have to look. I do have a gallon of vinegar and 1.1ml dosing pump so i could start dosing vinegar or vodka. I will read up on each. I thought at one time when i was reading there were suggestions that vinegar, vodka and sugar each promoted growth of a different bacteria not sure how true or if it was ever proven.
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Generally speaking, ethanol, acetic acid and sucrose/fructose will all promote the same kind of bacterial growth, but even if they didn't, we don't care as reefers, as all bacteria will take up nitrate and phosphate to grow.

I would strongly encourage you to start out with vinegar instead of vodka/sugar. All work, as do commercial products that contain them (such as Red Sea's NOxPOx, just at a much higher cost). However, both vodka and sugar are very concentrated sources of organic carbon, and the amount that needs to be added to a tank to be effective but not cause such a bacterial bloom that it depletes oxygen in the tank and harms the inhabitants is very small. So using these concentrated sources, it's very easy to overdose the tank. In contrast, vinegar is a 5% solution of acetic acid, and is therefore much easier for a reefer to accurately measure and dose to the tank, particularly if the tank's volume is less than 100 gallons.

I'd strongly suggest to you that you want to start the vinegar dosing with a plastic pipette (i.e., manually). There have been quite a number of threads from folks that have nuked their tanks with carbon dosing and a dosing pump set-up mistake.

This article will get you started with the "how" and "why".
 
dkeller_nc said:
Generally speaking, ethanol, acetic acid and sucrose/fructose will all promote the same kind of bacterial growth, but even if they didn't, we don't care as reefers, as all bacteria will take up nitrate and phosphate to grow.

I would strongly encourage you to start out with vinegar instead of vodka/sugar. All work, as do commercial products that contain them (such as Red Sea's NOxPOx, just at a much higher cost). However, both vodka and sugar are very concentrated sources of organic carbon, and the amount that needs to be added to a tank to be effective but not cause such a bacterial bloom that it depletes oxygen in the tank and harms the inhabitants is very small. So using these concentrated sources, it's very easy to overdose the tank. In contrast, vinegar is a 5% solution of acetic acid, and is therefore much easier for a reefer to accurately measure and dose to the tank, particularly if the tank's volume is less than 100 gallons.

I'd strongly suggest to you that you want to start the vinegar dosing with a plastic pipette (i.e., manually). There have been quite a number of threads from folks that have nuked their tanks with carbon dosing and a dosing pump set-up mistake.

This article will get you started with the "how" and "why".
Click to expand...

I have ran vodka before and then switched to vinegar using 1.1ml dosing pump from BRS with no problems. I will probably go the vinegar rout tomorrow when i get home and use the schedule on reefkeeper magazine.
 
IMO, you have a few options here. But first, I'll rule out the options that aren't going to work. Water changes and more rock. Water changes aren't going to permanently reduce nitrates. It's an expensive bandaid that's will last a day or so, as you're already experiencing. As Rocket pointed out, more rock will not reduce nitrates. Whatever bacteria your tank needs is already there and processing the amount of waste available. More rock is not going to do a thing for you.

Now, the options that will work. The simplest, maintenance free method will be a remote deep sand bed. Be creative, you may be able to make it fit. For example, a stand/shelf above the sump to hold a container of sand. It only needs to be about 6" deep. If you can make it work that will be your best option as you will now be truly exporting nitrates into nitrogen gas. If you have a refugium, convert it to a rdsb, but filter the water prior to feeding the rdsb with a filter bag.

If that option is impossible, an algae turf scrubber is another. Of course if you don't have room for a rdsb, you probably don't have room for an ats. If you can fit it, you have to understand that it only assimilates nutrients and will require that you export them through harvesting, a weekly chore.

Finally, there is carbon dosing. It sounds like you already know about it so I don't have much to add other than another possible route using bio pellets. Every tank is different and while vodka, etc. works well on some tank, other options work better on other tanks.
 
The only option i have for sand bed is i have a section in my sump that is about 12"x12" and is 3" deep. It is after my skimmer. I have a piece of glass on each side one is 8" which is the level my skimmer needs to be in water and the other side is 3". I have some rock in there now but could fill it with sand and put rock on top. Will a 12x12 3" sand bed do any thing?
 
I don't believe 3" is going to cut. Can you post a pic so we can see your setup? Why 3"? Could we drain the sump and extend the 3" baffle to 8" and then add 6" of sand? If so, I think that's a good solution to your problem.
 
I am out of town at the moment. I am afraid if we extend the baffle i wont have enough room for overflow if i have a power outage. I thought about that before. The reason for the 3" was when i added the baffles i thought a DSB was 3". I was trying to add different micro bugs like Amphipod, Copepods, mini stars etc. so i had a 3" sand bed full of Garf Grunge and when i redid my tank i never put anything back in it. I did have more organisms than ever from the grunge.
 
Sorry, I'm not understanding. I get the 3" wall to hold the grunge, but surely the water level is not 3 inches. How deep is the water level in this 12" square area. I assume there's another baffle before your return that sets the water level in this area.

And overflowing is caused by having too much water in your sump. Simply take some water out if it is close to overflowing. What are your sump dimensions?
 
My guess is that yes, a 3" deep, 12"x12" sand bed will help for a 55g tank. It is, after all, roughly the same area/volume than a 6" deep sand bed in a 5 gallon bucket (approximately 1.9 gallons vs 2.5 gallons for the bucket sand bed).

You won't really know until you try, and it's not likely to hurt anything.
 
Its a 20g long tank the returns run into the skimmer area that has an 8" baffle to keep the water steady for skimmer the. There is and actually i think its a 4" baffle to hold a 3" sandbed and keep the sand from rolling over into the area with the return pump and phosban reactors
 
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