I need some help with light sps coloration

[rigleautomotive]

i found if you run alk at 8 and cal at390 the sps corals color up.if i run my cal reactror pretty hard and get my alk to 10 or11 and cal to 420 my sps corals loose color.i discovered this when my needle valve on the co2 blocked and alk ran down to 7.4 before i found and corrected the problem.when the reactor was not working and i was dosing kalk only my corals looked the best color wise.my ph was 8.2 to 8.4 with no reactor.with the reactor my ph was 8.1 maxium.

 

[speckled trout]

Horace,

They don't have to be fed or supplemented. Here's some pics of an unfeed, unsupplemented tank. He doses Ca only.

Great lights, frequent water changes and a great skimmer works wonders.

 

[JW Jersey]

Hey horase, I defiantly think that the extra feeding is helping the corals to color up and increased growth. But the extra feedings seem to be making some nuisance algae start to grow.
I need to invest in to a colormeter for P04 I must have phosphates in the system but the salifert kit doesn't show any.


Hey there serioussnaps, Thanks for the replies. I made a typo on my original post about my ca it was indeed 420ppm. As far as my kalk goes it gets added with my tunze osmolator and it comes on about every half an hour or so. All my sps start out on the bottom and gradually move them up over the course of a couple months. I will get some updated water params. and come back with the results shortly.

 

[Horace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8218710#post8218710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by speckled trout
Horace,

They don't have to be fed or supplemented. Here's some pics of an unfeed, unsupplemented tank. He doses Ca only.

Great lights, frequent water changes and a great skimmer works wonders.

This is not as simple as you make it sound... he does have fish in there so he DOES feed the tank....

If you have big lights, do water changes out the wazu and have a huge skimmer, your corals will still look like dirty dog sh1t if they arent getting enough nitrogen....There is a fine balance that you have to try and stay on....too little nitrogen will cause corals to lighten....too much will cause them to darken/brown.

 

[JW Jersey]

Ok I'm Back with some numbers there are a few things a little off.
PH=8.07
Temp=79.2
sg=1.024 from a refractor ( Needs atten.)
Ca=380 salifert ( A Little low)
DKH=8.6 salifert
Mag=1140 salifert ( A little low)
No3=2.5 salifert ( Not good its on the rise, two weeks ago No3 was .5)
PO4=0 salifert

My ca reactor is really starting to get on my nerves. I constantly have to adjust it, The co2 gradually reduces bubble count every couple of days. Same goes for the effluent drip.

 

[Lobster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8220251#post8220251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JW Jersey
Ok I'm Back with some numbers there are a few things a little off.
PH=8.07
Temp=79.2
sg=1.024 from a refractor ( Needs atten.)
Ca=380 salifert ( A Little low)
DKH=8.6 salifert
Mag=1140 salifert ( A little low)
No3=2.5 salifert ( Not good its on the rise, two weeks ago No3 was .5)
PO4=0 salifert

My ca reactor is really starting to get on my nerves. I constantly have to adjust it, The co2 gradually reduces bubble count every couple of days. Same goes for the effluent drip.

Having same coloration problems as your picture. Just curious, what brand of salt are you using?

 

[cwegescheide]

I noticed a huge difference in my corals coloration by feeding more. I did add a few more fish but I think the big thing is just having fed more. I just feed flake and cyclop-eeze and every once in a while frozen mysis.

I'd possibly try dripping kalk to raise your ph a bit too.

Good luck,
Chris

 

[JW Jersey]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8226903#post8226903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lobster
Having same coloration problems as your picture. Just curious, what brand of salt are you using?

Thanks for the replys everyone.
Loster I am using IO brand salt, what brand are you using? I've been thinking of trying Tropic marin pro reef but not sure if I should.

 

[Lobster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8228584#post8228584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JW Jersey
Thanks for the replys everyone.
Loster I am using IO brand salt, what brand are you using? I've been thinking of trying Tropic marin pro reef but not sure if I should.

Funny, I am also using IO for the past six months. Actually, I've used IO since 1992! I was also thinking of switching to TMPro. My colors are just like yours, kinda washed out and tan. I originally had NO fish, but came to the same conclusions as you regarding nutrient starvation and I've since ramped up to a pretty heavy fish load for my size tank. It definitely has helped (like your tank) a little, but colors are not where I want them yet and some algae is appearing as a result of heavy feeding.

I've ordered some smaller micron foods from BSD (golden pearls, etc) and I just switched to a new Reeflux 10K bulb, so hopefully that has some effect.

All of my stats are stable except pH, which I feel is low at 7.8-8.0, so I'm working on that now with kalk. Unfortunately my alk demand is low since my tank is mostly frags and Im not sure I can get enough kalc in there to remedy it. Im sure I have a high CO2 home.

Having had many DSB tanks, this is my first BB tank and I can say this poor coloration is not a problem I have encountered in the past. I love the concept behind BB, and the tank is extremely clean and healthy and I get decent growth, so I am hoping I can figure out how I can get some good color going. Its so frustrating! I see so many BB tanks with this problem too... I am starting to lose faith to be honest.

Please keep me posted if you discover anything, since our problem seems so similar.

 

[Big E]

The only problem with adding fish & food is you have no idea how much nitrate & phosphate your adding to the tank. You run the risk of too much and later fighting algae problems. This leads to adding more export mechanisms & a viscous circle.

Anyone consider just chemically adding N or P?.........it's controllable & easy to measure. Kent & Seachem make these type of products.

You need a balanced ratio of N&P..........if you can't keep macro alive in your sump in a BB system, I'd venture to guess that your acros have washed out colors. The tank is too N &P limited.

I have a BB system & haven't had the lightening problems. Guess I got lucky & have the right balance of N & P.

Some good links....
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=858426&highlight=redfield+ratio

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=611702&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...page=25&highlight=redfield ratio&pagenumber=1

Even though these are about macro algae, I bleieve it relates exactly to what we're tyring to do in our SPS systems.

 

[Horace]

Fellas, the REAL goal is not to raise PO4/NO3 at all.....You want to add just enough food to feed the corals yet not enough to raise the nutrient levels. High nutrient levels will cause browned out corals....Yet too little nitrogen will also cause light colored corals. The key is for the corals to get that nitrogen WITHOUT raising your NO3/P04, thus the need for massive skimming, and other nutrient exporting methods. This allows you to put lots of food in the tank and get it out before it turns to No3/Po4s

 

[Lobster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8230149#post8230149 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
The only problem with adding fish & food is you have no idea how much nitrate & phosphate your adding to the tank. You run the risk of too much and later fighting algae problems. This leads to adding more export mechanisms & a viscous circle.

...

I have a BB system & haven't had the lightening problems. Guess I got lucky & have the right balance of N & P.

Thank you for the links! Since you have a colorful BB tank, do you have some pictures? Also, what is your pH and alk like? How many fish? What do you feed? What salt?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8230369#post8230369 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace
Fellas, the REAL goal is not to raise PO4/NO3 at all.....You want to add just enough food to feed the corals yet not enough to raise the nutrient levels. High nutrient levels will cause browned out corals....Yet too little nitrogen will also cause light colored corals. The key is for the corals to get that nitrogen WITHOUT raising your NO3/P04, thus the need for massive skimming, and other nutrient exporting methods. This allows you to put lots of food in the tank and get it out before it turns to No3/Po4s

I cannot add any more food to the tank without algae growth. I am sure I am feeding sufficiently now, and I dont think this magical amount of food is the answer to BB color problems.

High nutrients fertilize zoox, and zoox is brown, which is the cause of deeper browning. We all understand that and the relation of NO3/PO4 use. This is not the problem we are having. I've seen/had browned out coral due to nutrient excess (in all my DSB tanks at some point). This is different - the problem I have is washed out or light tan coral. There does not appear to be an excess of zoox here, there is just no pigmentation displaying as color once the zoox is reduced.

Coloration in coral comes from zoox, but also from pigments in the coral tissue that alter the light to something useable by the coral. Where are these pigments in my coral? I believe there is either some missing element in my tank that is needed for developing the pigments, or my corals lack some stimulus to produce the pigment (ie, they dont require it in my tank). Perhaps it is simply lack of light, since my frags are about 12" away from a 150W 10K bulb, but they do receive high PAR here, so I am just not sure of that.

 

[Lobster]

Another thought... coral pigmentation serves to filter harmful UV light. My light has a rather thick UV shield. What lighting do you guys run, and do you use a shield? Just a stab in the dark Im sure, but doesnt hurt to ask.

 

[blide]

I had a similar lack of color problem and couldn't understand why.... Until I started reviewing what people fed their tanks and what SPS need for food.

When I first started my newbie thoughts were to feed small amounts to my fish, but what I didn't understand is what type of food. I have 6 fish and was only feeding them flake\pellets with nori daily and basically starving my corals because there were no meat foods for them to digest. So now I feed mysis, zooplankton (kent), and nori and my corals are really starting to have more of a deep color.

 

[javajaws]

My SPS have started looking a lot better in my BB tank since I added more fish and increased feedings. I feed the fish primarily mysis and sweetwater zooplankton (2 cubes of mysis 2x a day). I also throw in some GPs, Oyster Eggs, and cyclopeeze as well (usually one or two of those once per day). I also throw in some nori and some pellets occasionally.

I had this one SPS that was mostly an offwhite color it was so starved - no other color whatsoever. After the fish/food additions it now has a slightly darker tone and nice blue tips. Colors in other corals have also darkened and improved. Polpy extension on all my corals during the day is much improved vs. before. I also think I am getting very good growth now.

My nitrates/phosphates are still unmeasurable.

 

[JW Jersey]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8230149#post8230149 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
The only problem with adding fish & food is you have no idea how much nitrate & phosphate your adding to the tank. You run the risk of too much and later fighting algae problems. This leads to adding more export mechanisms & a viscous circle.

Anyone consider just chemically adding N or P?.........it's controllable & easy to measure. Kent & Seachem make these type of products.

You need a balanced ratio of N&P..........if you can't keep macro alive in your sump in a BB system, I'd venture to guess that your acros have washed out colors. The tank is too N &P limited.

I have a BB system & haven't had the lightening problems. Guess I got lucky & have the right balance of N & P.

Some good links....
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=858426&highlight=redfield+ratio

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=611702&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...page=25&highlight=redfield ratio&pagenumber=1

Even though these are about macro algae, I bleieve it relates exactly to what we're tyring to do in our SPS systems.

Hey Big E, If you don't mind me asking what level's of NO3 and PO4 do you have in your system? I never tried to grow macro's in my tank so I don't know if they would grow, I don't have a refugium.

Lobster I'm using two pfo mini hqi pendants with the glass shields.

 

[Big E]

Thank you for the links! Since you have a colorful BB tank, do you have some pictures? Also, what is your pH and alk like? How many fish? What do you feed? What salt?

I don't want to clog this thread up with a bunch of pictures, but I'll try to post a link with some pics later. I'm happy with my colors & I don't have a problem with washed out colors.

First off, let me say that there are way too many variables to mimic another reefer's tank & have the same colors & growth.
I've seen awesome reefs using almost any system & method.
The key is getting a BALANCE in import/export that works for YOUR system.

Imo, the corals aren't eating the food that is put into the tank they are eating the bacteria that consumes the N & P that the foods & fish poop produce. That is why I suggested possibly adding it chemically.........just brainstoming, but I think it would be interesting to try especially in a coral only type tank that is suffering from lightened corals. It would be a small enough amount that wouldn't even register in a test kit......after all, the test results are only showing what isn't being used up by the bacteria, corals & algae. Here's a good thread with some links about dissolved organics..........

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81500

 

[Big E]

My 120g reef BB for 3+ years,

I run my tank with a skimmer & 10% weekly water changes. No chemicals, macro, carbon, ect. My N03 is zero Salifert & PO4 is .01-.02 on a Hanna meter.

I use IO salt, alk 8.6-9.3 Calcuim 400-420

Fish load- -
1 CBB buterfly
5 anthias
1 damsel

Corals about 30........10 good sized colonies. Very open rock work for good flow.


My corals now reside in my 180 gallon tank on racks as I had an ich problem & I also wanted to rid my rock of hydroids & some nasty macros...taxiformis & bubble algae.

I don't think my setup is a recipe for success but has worked okay for me. I might try some ozone or macro algae & try to lessen my water changes.

I've seen a few local BB tanks in person with great colors. Check SPStoner or Mantis pics(RC handles) One uses ozone & the other uses macro & phosban.

 

[Hef]

Ed, if there are some highlights to that thread you posted, I'd like to read them here. You need a login to access that page.

I understand your points. I dont really think that dumping food into a tank does anything to help corals. It's been discussed in great depth how coral feed on such a microscopic level. It is debated that they cannot even take in the Amino Acids that are sold for corals.

I've been lurking on this thread hoping it goes somewhere. I dont have this problem of lightned corals....anymore.
I dose nothing in my tank other than homemade 2 part for Ca & Alk. I run Rowaphos in a reactor and Carbon also.

There has been a lot of PH talk here. I doubt if that's a magical cure, but I have to say that my tank was at the same low level as the one in question here. 7.8 to 8.1. I've been dosing the baking soda formula for my alk for a long time now. My PH is higher now at 8.3 - 8.5.

I didnt see it here, may have missed it, has anyone mentioned Zeo products. No I've never used them, too pricey for me. I think there is something to it though. Possibly Iron Supplementation. It's well documented that Iron can change the color of corals. I believe it usually Lightens them by forcing the coral to expel zoox. It is said that Rowaphos adds Iron to a system, it is Rust after all. I do run lots of Rowaphos.
I also have a well seasoned Sand Bed. Could be adding just the right amount of food for corals...who knows.

I dosed Vodka for a over a year, now theres a N & P story for you. I bailed out on that one, due to lack of interest from the general public. I didnt want to be the only one on the block getting my tank drunk. I think generally that would be another coral lightening thing.

I think you are either looking at Stability making your coral heathier and darkening on it's own, Stability meaning Everything from Water quality, cleanliness - water chemistry, Ca & Alk - and water flow, lots of it ( I think you have that covered).

Stability - or an addition of chemicals as food or supplementation to coral.

There's my story, I'm here in Monmouth County if you ever want to have a beer and talk about it.

Hef

 

[Big E]

Hef, theres too much info to highlight.............just register, it only takes a few clicks & a little typing

On any commercial additives that don't list ingredients......imo its nothing but common chemicals or foods mixed in liquid form to create more N & P, nothing more. The light corals then color up from this miracle product......what a suprise

I think these products have merit for reducing nutrients, but the BB guys with lightening problems are already at that zero nutrient stage, so no need for it.