I think Ich is a farce

[jamesbaur13]

Sorry, but yeah. I really don't see this protozoan as being anything more serious than having fecal staff bacteria in your home. I saw that Mythbuster's episode... literally, sh!t is everywhere. Heaven forbid I get a cut, with all that fecal staff bacteria around I'm bound to get an infection ...right?

I'm not going to go into why I don't get an infection... you all have heard that. I'm also not going to go into why my fish don't get Ich, you all have heard that too.

I'd like to focus on prevention and cures, although my opening statement contradicts that... I'd still like to do it, but oh well.

My question is, why can we not just accept it and deal with it?

Instead we go with these lavish schemes to eradicate a protozoan which has adapted for millions of years to infect fish which have countered this protozoan for millions of years. We attempt to make protocols which are 99.5% effective. What happens with that .5%? End of story? All those people got out of the hobby and their entire population of livestock was lost? Nope, chances are one here or there ends up at a LFS... then what happens?

I view Ich as a barometer for stress factors in an aquarium and nothing more. In it's ability to "pop up" in poor environmental conditions I actually view it as being beneficial. I do realize this barometer has the ability to kill fish, but this is not without the aid of the original offending source.

So, why?

 

[BeanAnimal]

James,

If I toss you in a small room with 5 other folks, who DO have staff infections, your whistling past the graveyard if you think you are not going to get infected, stress or not.

Our tanks and the open ocean are two very different environments that are vastly different with regard to ecology and chemistry.

It is perfectly reasonable and probable for an otherwise healthy and stress free system to become infected by the introduction of a single non-quarantined addition.

 

[rfalvey89]

James , " nothing more serious than a fecal staph infection"
THAT ,in my book ranks pretty high. The saltwater aquarium is = to a bait shop ....but we should still try and manage it.

 

[iwishtofish]

We do accept it (that it exists) and deal with it (by either preventing it, curing it, or replacing our fish).

 

[jamesbaur13]

" nothing more serious than a fecal staph infection"

I said that?

 

[Osteoclast]

Bean,

it is Staphlococcus, especially Staph aureus that humans are concerned with. Methicillin resistant strains are particularly lethal in the hospital environment. Many deaths have been observed in the past 5-6 years. Fortuantely new antibiotics are now available to eradicate this bacterium. Fish have different immunity systems both cellular and humeral so generalizations should not be made to human disease. Protozoa are far less common in humans yet more prevalent in closed aquaria.

 

[jamesbaur13]

It is perfectly reasonable and probable for an otherwise healthy and stress free system to become infected by the introduction of a single non-quarantined addition.

yup and they have the means to deal with it.

 

[jazzman7838]

Instead we go with these lavish schemes to eradicate a protozoan

What do you mean by lavish schemes?

I mostly agree with you that in a mature reef tank with healthy established fish, Cryptocaryon is really not a big deal. The fish fight it off and presumably sandbed/live rock fauna help consume the cysts. Newly shipped fish are a different matter entirely IMO/IME. I always QT for 30 days and treat with chloroquine if necessary. No reason to add one more stressor to a fish that is already dealing with the stress of being starved and shipped across the world in a bag.

 

[jamesbaur13]

If I toss you in a small room with 5 other folks, who DO have staff infections, your whistling past the graveyard if you think you are not going to get infected, stress or not.

So you're saying if anyone ever took a cr4p in your house and you have a cut on your hand and it gets infected you're whole family and everyone else you know is gonna die?

 

[jamesbaur13]

What do you mean by lavish schemes?

I mostly agree with you that in a mature reef tank with healthy established fish, Cryptocaryon is really not a big deal. The fish fight it off and presumably sandbed/live rock fauna help consume the cysts. Newly shipped fish are a different matter entirely IMO/IME. I always QT for 30 days and treat with chloroquine if necessary. No reason to add one more stressor to a fish that is already dealing with the stress of being starved and shipped across the world in a bag.

Fallow period... removing all fish, treating with copper/hypo/tank transfer. while the tank goes fallow 10 weeks to starve out 99.5% of the known ich strains.

 

[iwishtofish]

So you're saying if anyone ever took a cr4p in your house and you have a cut on your hand and it gets infected you're whole family and everyone else you know is gonna die?

Bean can answer for himself, of course, but I believe he is just stressing that the parasite is so infectious that it's unlikely a stress-free fish could avoid it.

Good intentions notwithstanding, this thread so far is just a repeat of the same old ich battle - you know, the one between those who believe healthy, happy fish are not at risk and that ich is always in one's tank, and those who believe otherwise on both counts.

Science backs the latter.

 

[jamesbaur13]

Bean can answer for himself, of course, but I believe he is just stressing that the parasite is so infectious that it's unlikely a stress-free fish could avoid it.

Good intentions notwithstanding, this thread so far is just a repeat of the same old ich battle - you know, the one between those who believe healthy, happy fish are not at risk and that ich is always in one's tank, and those who believe otherwise on both counts.

Science backs the latter.

If you can not 100% eradicate it then what are you doing? ...making it stronger?

Stop the boat.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Bean,

it is Staphlococcus, especially Staph aureus that humans are concerned with. Methicillin resistant strains are particularly lethal in the hospital environment. Many deaths have been observed in the past 5-6 years. Fortuantely new antibiotics are now available to eradicate this bacterium. Fish have different immunity systems both cellular and humeral so generalizations should not be made to human disease. Protozoa are far less common in humans yet more prevalent in closed aquaria.

I am familiar with the [SIC] "staff" infections... My response was (clearly) not meant to compare the immune system of a fish and human or infer that they are in any way similar. The analogy was directed at proximity and exposure in context to anything that multiplies in a closed environment compared to "in the wild". We could be talking about bedbugs and ich for that matter. Honestly, I responded as I did becuase I can see this conversation is going to go nowhere serious... Ich is a farce and so is staff, right?

 

[BeanAnimal]

So you're saying if anyone ever took a cr4p in your house and you have a cut on your hand and it gets infected you're whole family and everyone else you know is gonna die?

No James, that is not what I am saying.

 

[swcc]

25 years...never had a ick outbreak. I have had a fish I introduced to an aquarium here or there get ick..then in a day or two it is gone.

 

[jamesbaur13]

Bean, so how do you propose we eliminate that particular strain of bacteria you are referring to?

 

[iwishtofish]

If you can not 100% eradicate it then what are you doing? ...making it stronger?

You can 100% eradicate it, but, as you argue, we must make considerable extra effort to do so.

If you QT every fish that is destined for your tank, and eradicate the parasite from infected fish prior to introducing them into your tank, you will not introduce ich to your system. Ich may, of course, be introduced on anything wet that goes in your tank, including corals and anemones. Some people even QT those critters for 6-8 weeks to ensure any free-floating stage of the parasite that might be in the water (or rock or plug) dies off.

Most people look at a fish and say "I don't see any ich," and toss it in. I'll find a link to a good read, if you like. It's a complex problem, with both moral (to the captive animal) and practical (cost) elements.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I did not know we were talking about eliminating a strain of bacteria James. I suppose you want me to say antibiotics so that you can say that they will only make the strain stronger or cause it to mutate.... Do as you wish, the conversation has nothing to do with marine Ich.

 

[jamesbaur13]

25 years...never had a ick outbreak. I have had a fish I introduced to an aquarium here or there get ick..then in a day or two it is gone.

Exactly my point swcc. I'm sure if you did see a blow-up you'd be able to pin it to some environmental factor as well.

 

[jamesbaur13]

I did not know we were talking about eliminating a strain of bacteria James. I suppose you want me to say antibiotics so that you can say that they will only make the strain stronger or cause it to mutate.... Do as you wish, the conversation has nothing to do with marine Ich.

You're right, it doesn't. My point is you can't eradicate it.