ich and main tank????

Re: ich and main tank????

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15534929#post15534929 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ajolie30
I have an outbreak of ich in my main tank can u use hypo in there if I remove inverts and coral???? is hypo ok for live rock

You are not going to get all the inverts out and the micro inverts (pods etc..) will die do the sudden change in salinity. Hypo isn't all ways proven to rid you of ich fyi.

Good luck with the battle I hope you come out ok.

By the way you don't have to tear the tank down to get the fish out most people have great luck with a baited DIY fish trap (assuming the fish are still eating).

I would suggest you look at Waterkeepers post http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1500214&highlight=Ich
 
there is no way I am gonna get all those fish outta there it will only cause them more stress I believe in that.... this hobby would be so great if there wasn't such disease in the ocean i wonder how they make it but in our systems its seems to be a constant problem i have used the qt method and used hypo for 8 weeks and then slowly brought up the salinity them treated with para guard all was good for months now all of a sudden one tang has a few spots on it
 
Ever been to a large aquarium? Chances are you have. 20 to 50 thousand gallon reefs stocked full of all kinds of fish. What if one got ick? Would it bring the entire tank down? Should we send in a diver and quarenteen the poor fellow?

They don't get ick in the large aquariums. Why?

Exceptional water quality and exceptional diet.

Try it.

I'm sorry its so simple.
 
Well you are quite wrong in thinking they dont use copper in large aquariums.Find someone that has worked in one and ask if they keep the tanks disease free with just clean water.If they do go the route you are saying its because they dont have a closed system and actually pump water from the ocean in very high turnover rate and its nothing like our closed systems at home.I saw Robert Fenner speak last year and he actually said that in some aquariums they used so much copper that the bottom of the sand in the aquarium would start to turn blue.
 
Also, why wouldn't they quarantine their new fish even in a new aquarium? In a large 20-50K gallon aquarium there is enough volume of water that any ich in the system will have a harder time finding a host and the infected fish are only infected by a few organisms. In our small tanks, ich has a much better chance of finding a hos and thus many of the organism take the fish down.
 
Flameangel, your arguments make no sense to anyone with even a basic knowledge of cryptocaryon "Ich".
Your advise is dangerous and full of fallacies.
Please educate yourself about the subject before you attempt to give advise that is not only wrong, but may result in the loss of fish for another aquarist.

A good place to start would be the Reefkeeping Magazine articles,
Part 1 - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
Part 2 - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

And the previously "official" Ick thread that used to be stickied here.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1500214

The education may not make you change your mind about your own personal treatment, but it may keep you from repeating some old myths that are patently false and spreading disinformation to other newbies.

As for large aquariums, they are like the ocean, in a large enough volume of water, Ich is no more than a minor nuisance.
Unfortunately, it becomes extremely dangerous when you have an outbreak in a smaller enclosed volume of water like the 20-500 gallons that most of us keep.
If several parasites attack the gills of a fish at the same time then no amount of water changes or feeding/garlic will prevent that fish from suffocating to death.
FYI, Ich is the #1 infectious cause of fish death in the marine ornamental industry.
 
Hmm last time I checked copper killed inverts and coral.

Theres ick in large systems your a fool to think otherwise.
Pre quarenteen or otherwise.

They treat them with kindness(good h2o and food)
 
I've read all those articles thx.
Thats one gentlemans opinion,
Not this gentleman

My point is 2 things.

If given proper diet and frequent small water changes you won't have to deal with ick much if at all.

This nonsense of catching fish (lord only knows how thats gonna go) squeezing them in a smaller tank so on and so forth.

1. Remove all rock
2. Chase sick fish around
3. Stir the poop out of your substrate, fish love inhaling that stuff.
4. Remove all fish putting entire live stock in a significantly smaller tank
5. Now they are our of their usual environment sick and stressed.
6. Bumping into each other =more stress.
7. Meanwhile fighting over the lone piece of pvc you chucked in there for shelter.
8. And now for the hypo.... this should be fun
9. Soon to be chased around again
10. And put back in the same tank which by the way still has ick present if not it soon will.

Aint gonna work. If it does you had a very strong fish.

In my experience when a fish gets ick theres a reason and its most likely going to affect the rest of your fish in short order.

1. Find the reason
Most likely water parameters

2. Then fix it
water change

3. Feed them
Big variety keep them eating.

Its my game plan your welcome to disagree but I have happy shiny fish and I'm sticking to it.

People under estimate the 2 MOST important aspects of this hobby.

I think you know what they are.
 
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Water change and improved water quality or diet is next to useless against ich, especially if there is already an outbreak.

Ich is basically not a disease at all, or it is a disease that has little relation to diet or water quality. In the ocean it is not a disease, in the tank it is a matter of chance. Once ich gets the upperhand once, in the next cycle or the cycle after the next the ich concentration will be overwheming to any resistance.

80% water change daily won't infuence the outcome much. The remaining 20% contain plenty of ich.

Diatom filter well charged and properly used has a much better ratio of removal and can be useful in delaying spread of ich.
 
You are treating those as opinions..they are not opinions they are proven to work with that crazy thing called science.They didnt speculate if doing these things worked they tested it in labs from the aquaculture food industry who was suffering massive loss due to ick.On the other hand you are speculating on what you can see with your eyes.If we took a gill scraping of one of your fish we would find ich and you are one bad heater away from massive outbreak.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15534975#post15534975 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flameangel9
Nothing weekly water changes and varied diet won't take care of.

What they cannot take care of are the confinement effect of the tank, the lack of dilution effect of the ocean.

There are two classes of diseases that water quality and diet will not be enough, even necessary. It is possible to be necessary but insufficient.

First is Oodinum and ich. Extremely contrary.

Second, external bacterial infection. Strong contrary. Immunity against pathogenic bacteria requires previous exposure.
 
I had the massive outbreak. The entire stock was infected. My hippo looked like someone threw a bag of powdered sugar at him.
This was 3 months ago.
Wheres the ick now?
Picture139-1-1.jpg

Picture1546-1-1.jpg
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15535090#post15535090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ajolie30
I will do some test and a water cahnge tomorrow I do have a uv steralizer on my tank I know it doesnt help much but some say it helps
a little i just bought today alot of rich food for them too eat formulas one and two some krill and some cyclpeez I forgit to get some garlic which I will to soak their food I hope all will be well

UV sized against bacteria and viruses is not strong enough against ich and frequently has no material impact on the rate of spread of ich.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15544088#post15544088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flameangel9
I had the massive outbreak. The entire stock was infected. My hippo looked like someone threw a bag of powdered sugar at him.
This was 3 months ago.
Wheres the ick now?
Picture139-1-1.jpg

Picture1546-1-1.jpg

You may have been just lucky this time, or something quite unpleasant is awaiting you still.
 
I'm not alone...

The following is copied from your provided articles.
I have read these before.


Natural Immunity

Fish can develop immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans that can last for up to six months (Colorni, 1987 and Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It is this natural immunity that makes evaluating the effectiveness of various treatment options so difficult. How can someone ever be certain that what they dosed to their tank or fed to their fish is what caused the cure they observed? The answer is simple, they can't. Until there are controlled, scientific studies, preferably repeated a few times, we cannot be sure that any of the newer homeopathic or "reef-safe" treatments actually work.

This limited immunity is also the basis for some aquarists advocating that if a fish gets sick, to just maintain pristine water quality, feed a superb diet, and to allow the fish's own immune system to do the job. While it is possible that this could work, natural immunity is not totally foolproof. In the studies cited above, some of the fish were not completely protected by their own natural immunity. It is possible that immunity could protect the fish from massive infestation, but still allow small numbers of parasites to remain and reproduce undetected by the aquarist. This is where the 'Ich is always present' argument comes into play and why sometimes an aquarist has recurring difficulties with this pathogen. It is possible, in some cases, that the treatment was cut short or misapplied or for some other reason not totally effective, but that immunity helped to partially ward off the infection. In this situation, a low-level infestation, held in check by natural immunity but not totally eradicated, could continue to survive but be misdiagnosed, or missed all together, by the hobbyist. The parasites could progress through their lifecycle by predominately attacking the gill tissue, where they could go unseen. Or, the number of parasites could be so low and their appearance (and disappearance) be erratic enough that the aquarist does not pick up on the infection or attributes the occasional white spot to a speck of sand or air bubble because the fish are behaving normally otherwise. That is until some other minor mishap occurs or the immunity wears off and the balance shifts in favor of the infestation, resulting in a full-blown infestation once again.

I want to be clear on this point. I do not believe Cryptocaryon irritans is always present in our systems. With a STRICT quarantine protocol, it is possible keep an Ich-free aquarium. I just believe that there have been enough hobbyists who have misused a treatment or utilized an ineffective treatment option, such that they never really fully conquered their initial infestation. Their continuing problems over the course of many months, and the posting of those experiences, seem to be enough to promote this aquarium myth. Cryptocaryon irritans can be eradicated from an infected system with a proven treatment and can be kept out of the system if good quarantine practices are employed.

Most of the hobbyists who consider letting their fish fight off the infection on their own are hopeful that it will work because they find the challenge of removing all the fish and allowing the aquarium to go fallow (without any fish hosts), very daunting. If you are considering natural immunity as a treatment option, ask yourself a few simple questions.


Lets answer this authors questions.


"¢ How big is the tank?

For me 75gallons

"¢ How difficult would it really be to tear the display apart to capture and remove all of the fishes to a separate hospital/quarantine tank for treatment?

An absolute nightmare for me and the fish


"¢ How much is it going to cost to replace all of the fishes in the event of a catastrophic loss?

Bunch of $$ but don't tell my wife


"¢ What kind of moral and ethical responsibilities do you have for the pets that you purchased?


More than most you'd be suprised



"¢ And lastly, what in the world were you doing adding anything that had not been quarantined into your aquarium in the first place?

Stop pretending


Can any of you say for SURE...

You quarenteened and dipped(don't forget those gills just because you can't see anything) All and I mean ALL your fish.
Did you dip that zoa frag that was thrown to you a half hour before you had to go to work. Because if you didn't you may have ick in your tank. Every frag dipped? Every coral? These scientific remedies are performed under very careful scrutiny. Are you that careful? Or are you pretending. I would guess that 3% of the hobbiests are doing everything "BY THE BOOK". Everyone else has ick in there tank. AND is looking forward to a total tank breakdown because they don't want to do a water change and feed correctly.

I'm done now. Go on pretending.
 
As much as I am committed to eradication for ich, I would like to say that I am not at all sure that the garlic method is useless.

Observed that it is possible to have systemic treatment of dogs and cats against flea. Some medication in the bloodstream is not toxic to dogs and cats but is to flea. There may well be some substance in garlic that acts likewise. This is not immunity but medication.

Can fish develop immunity against ich? May be some. However, the number factor can very well be, and is frequently, decisive. It is a great chance that one takes.

I believe it may work this way. If ich ever gets the upperhand, then after a couple of cycles, if unchecked, will multiply to enormous numbers that overwhems any immunity.

But why would ich get the upperhand at any point in time in the first place? May be immunity is a factor if ich would get the upperhand at any point in time, but if it does, immunity eventually means little.

In summary, these are not the chances I want to take. Eradication is not hard to me. QT is not particularily stressful to me or the fish. With experience and preparation, it is rather easy and doesn't need much work. Practically, it is a no-brainer to eradicate ich.
 
To advocate not using quarantine and treatment because aquarists' may not have perfect habits is the equivalent of saying a condom has a chance of breaking so why bother using one with that stranger you just met?

A prudent and responsible pet owner/fish owner would not leave a potentially fatal parasite infection on their pet/fish.

I have been down the road of "feed and pray", and anecdotal methods to treat Ich in the past and I was rewarded with several systems full of dead fish.
I currently have both hospital and quarantine systems setup to deal with new arrivals and any health issues and use them religiously.
New fish are preventatively treated with anti-fungal, anti-bacterial medication and are either treated with hypo or the tank transfer method to eradicate any Ich parasite before being introduced to their permanent home.
Since using proper husbandry practices I have been able to catch any infectious disease while in QT and haven't had to deal with an Ich outbreak in any of my display systems.

There is no excuse for not having a QT or hospital tank setup and using it in this hobby.
 
Let it be noted: wooden_reefer will never experience ick again.

Did you dip ALL your coral? Every one? Was your quarentine on every fish 4 weeks? welcome to the 3%! That is if your not pretending.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15544562#post15544562 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loyalrogue
To advocate not using quarantine and treatment because aquarists' may not have perfect habits is the equivalent of saying a condom has a chance of breaking so why bother using one with that stranger you just met?

A prudent and responsible pet owner/fish owner would not leave a potentially fatal parasite infection on their pet/fish.

I have been down the road of "feed and pray", and anecdotal methods to treat Ich in the past and I was rewarded with several systems full of dead fish.
I currently have both hospital and quarantine systems setup to deal with new arrivals and any health issues and use them religiously.
New fish are preventatively treated with anti-fungal, anti-bacterial medication and are either treated with hypo or the tank transfer method to eradicate any Ich parasite before being introduced to their permanent home.
Since using proper husbandry practices I have been able to catch any infectious disease while in QT and haven't had to deal with an Ich outbreak in any of my display systems.

There is no excuse for not having a QT or hospital tank setup and using it in this hobby.


Welcome to the 3% State certified aquaculturist.

I was talking to the rest of them. THE PRETENDERS
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15544594#post15544594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flameangel9
Let it be noted: wooden_reefer will never experience ick again.

Did you dip ALL your coral? Every one?

How often do you purchase corals? Corals need proper light source so I get all the corals I want first. They all have been fishless for many weeks in the DT. Inverts that do not need special light can be isolated for weeks fishless.

It is a matter of procedure. Proper planning.

BTW, this goes with shunning the gradual method of cycling. It would really be painful to have to stock gradually to lessen mini-cycling. There is no mini-cycling for me.
 
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