ICH - Can You Live With It? Plan of action/opinions needed (did everything right)...

[Buzz1329]

Not going to happen

Would rather keep my fish as stress free and well fed over tearing every down for 3 months and not really having a 100% guarantee it won't come back.

Could not agree more!

Mike

 

[skimjim]

meet the AFRICAN cleaner wrasse. The only solution for new fish added to a tank plagued with recurring ICH.

i have a 180g and i have two AFRICAN cleaner wrasses that continually clean all my fish of all parasites including ICH. If i took out these two wrasses all my fish would probably die within a month.

the DEAL is you must buy the cleaner wrasses marketed as AFRICAN cleaner wrasse. any other region of cleaner wrasse, like Indonesia cleaner wrasse will die from starvation bc they do NOT know to eat any other food other than parasites off fish. they wont take to prepared foods and will starve with no parasites to eat

the African Cleaner Wrasse, however, is well adapted to eat other foods ranging from flake to mysis to whatever you put in the tank to sustain itself when picking parasites off your fish stock is slim-pickings. My two african cleaner wrasses even eat nori sheets i put in. they have been in my tank for 2yrs and every fish i have is very clean and happy. all my fish will swim and hunt down these wrasses and when the wrasses start cleaning my fish "freeze" in the water while being cleaned. this cleaning process happens all thru-out the day. my fish love to be cleaned as it seems to make them happier with getting rid of irritations off their scales.

i cant say enough about owning them. they are a requirement in any of my tanks.

I would have saved hundreds of $$$ of fish that died in my tank if I knew about the African Cleaner wrasse a lot earlier in my hobby that started in 2004.

HTH

 

[nuxx]

We have a Common Cleaner in there, but I think they're more of a bandaid than solution.

Last two days nothing really to report. Looks like the aggression has died down between the Black and YB Blue Tangs. The Black's fin is healed and no new spots to report on anyone.

 

[Sapelo]

Good news, even if just for now.
I'm following, interested to hear how things go. We're sort of dealing with the same problem in our 300 gallon, one tang with obvious signs that we removed, and now are watching the occasional spot appear on other fish.
I hope you will keep us updated on how things go with you.

 

[nuxx]

Good news, even if just for now.
I'm following, interested to hear how things go. We're sort of dealing with the same problem in our 300 gallon, one tang with obvious signs that we removed, and now are watching the occasional spot appear on other fish.
I hope you will keep us updated on how things go with you.

Yeah for sure

Got a little worried last night when one of the Crosshatches didn't want to eat.

I did feed them at full lights on, they typically eat in the morning and evening at around 50% of where the lights top out at.

This morning he ate like a pig. He's also changing color to a deep golden... finally!

Also some more interesting notes on aggression / stress...

I now see that one of the Crosshatches is now sleeping where the YB Blue Tang has always slept :idea:

 

[outssider]

meet the AFRICAN cleaner wrasse. The only solution for new fish added to a tank plagued with recurring ICH.

i have a 180g and i have two AFRICAN cleaner wrasses that continually clean all my fish of all parasites including ICH. If i took out these two wrasses all my fish would probably die within a month.

the DEAL is you must buy the cleaner wrasses marketed as AFRICAN cleaner wrasse. any other region of cleaner wrasse, like Indonesia cleaner wrasse will die from starvation bc they do NOT know to eat any other food other than parasites off fish. they wont take to prepared foods and will starve with no parasites to eat

the African Cleaner Wrasse, however, is well adapted to eat other foods ranging from flake to mysis to whatever you put in the tank to sustain itself when picking parasites off your fish stock is slim-pickings. My two african cleaner wrasses even eat nori sheets i put in. they have been in my tank for 2yrs and every fish i have is very clean and happy. all my fish will swim and hunt down these wrasses and when the wrasses start cleaning my fish "freeze" in the water while being cleaned. this cleaning process happens all thru-out the day. my fish love to be cleaned as it seems to make them happier with getting rid of irritations off their scales.

i cant say enough about owning them. they are a requirement in any of my tanks.

I would have saved hundreds of $$$ of fish that died in my tank if I knew about the African Cleaner wrasse a lot earlier in my hobby that started in 2004.

HTH

I have read that these fish can not eat ich because ich is under the skin too far. The white spot we see is not the parasite

 

[laga77]

There have been many studies done on the Cleaner Wrasse about them eating ICH. The results have been that they do not eat ICH. One report I read, examined the stomach contains of the wrasses and never found any ICH. They eat dead skin and scales along with copepod size foods and parasites, but no ICH. From AdvancedAquarist:Alexandra Grutter studied the stomach contents of the common cleaner wrasse or Labroides dimidiatus and found that their diet consists of gnathiid isopods, scales, copepods and non-parasitic copepods (Grutter, 2000). Cryptocaryon irritans was not found in the stomach contents indicating that it is not a part of their diet.

 

[hogfanreefer]

Sorry to hear this. It is extremely discouraging. I would be willing to bet that this represents a copper failure. I am usining TTM for fear of the same thing.

Can't disagree with your strategy of "living with it" One bit of good news is I read an article recently that suggests that if we go for long enough without adding new fish in a tank containing Ich the strain will die out? Don't know if that's factual but it does give some hope!

 

[nuxx]

Had an epiphany this weekend.

After days of actually wanting to see an ich spot on the fish, I gave up on driving myself crazy if or if it wasn't in the tank.

Like I said previously, I was running extremely strict QT measures:
- 15 days of Paraguard and Prazi + 4 weeks of Cupramine.
- 72+ days of fishless QT of coral and inverts.

At the end of the coral QT the corals are barely hanging on.

Basically came down to, do I want to run a hospital or have a hobby. Endless wondering about ich in the display and having $xxx of coral sitting in the frag tank dying a little more each day during each round of QT was making this no fun.

Ended up after 45 days or so, moving the coral (Bayer and Iodine dips first) over to the display and the remaining inverts. 36 of 40 huge Mexican Turbos and Red and Blue Linkia Starfish. 4 Turbos didn't make it, and the Sea Hare died a few days prior

I was able to get the green hair algae to stop growing in the display with GFO and wet skimming, but it wasn't going away. 2 days in the Mexican Turbos have probably eaten ~ 10%+. I'd say in a few weeks it'll all be gone. Going by my previous 72 day QT procedure, it would have been another month with the GHA and probably another 10+ Turbos would have died. Not to mention the Starfish or the hard corals that have already browned becoming too far gone.

The last batch of browned SPS from last time's QT are finally coloring up in the display.

I plan to do the following going forward...

Fish:
- Get fish eating in QT.
- Treat for 30-35 days with Paraguard everyday and 3 rounds of Prazi during.
- Observe.
(If fish is covered in ich, run Cupramine)

Coral / Inverts:
- Turn 150 gallon frag tank into a real tank.
- Have rock and sand in the tank.
- Have QTed fish in the system to keep nutrients up for coral.
- After last wet item (coral / invert) is added, wait just over 30 days to watch for any signs of disease in fish.
(Will even allow me to grow out corals, not just QT them trying to get them to survive for 72 days in non-optimal conditions)

In both cases, just really trying to catch extremely bad diseases and infections (Velvet, etc...).

In the end, ich for the most part is a livable parasite. Good health and low stress (and time possibly) can allow fish to live long lives even if infected.

If ich made it into the tank, one of the previously bullet proof methods failed, or it was transferred on washed and dried hands or in the air... more reasons to not ruin my love of the hobby being paranoid about ich.

I'm also not 100% positive that:
- Ich is always in a fish's system, maybe laying dormant until a high stress event.
- Ich is always in a fish's system after a prior infection.
- Cupramine / 72 day fishless period actually rids fish/tank of ich parasite.

 

[shermanator]

Why not do TTM with incoming fish? It's fairly quick (only takes 12-15 days depending on how many transfers you want to do) and reasonably stress free.

I mean, it's still unclear if you even have ich in your tank. I also wouldn't agree that ich is a livable parasite. It's possible to live with (see examples in this thread), but it's also wiped out entire tanks (or close to it, including at least one RC member who posted here as an example of being able to live with ich).

If you knew you had ich, your plans seem totally reasonable. But you very well might not have ich and there are easy options to continue avoiding it in the future.

 

[nuxx]

Why not do TTM with incoming fish? It's fairly quick (only takes 12-15 days depending on how many transfers you want to do) and reasonably stress free.

Had a few wrasses do extremely bad the first time I did TTM :/

 

[JMorris271]

I am wondering if there is something to a tank getting ich from an air born source.
It has been suggested in here before.

 

[shermanator]

I am wondering if there is something to a tank getting ich from an air born source.
It has been suggested in here before.

Aerosolized water droplets containing ich has been shown (in the scientific literature) to enable infection of adjacent tanks. I recall it was something like 1-2 feet these droplets can traverse... However, ich cannot live without a host, so the idea that ich is floating around everywhere in the air is nonsense (unless there is an infected tank nearby).

 

[CStrickland]

QT was making this no fun.
...
not ruin my love of the hobby

I respect your decision. I think you understand this stuff as much as anybody. You collected good info, weighed your options, and made the choice that is right for you.
I think you will have very happy fish for many years and a hobby that gives you pleasure.
:thumbsup:

 

[nuxx]

Aerosolized water droplets containing ich has been shown (in the scientific literature) to enable infection of adjacent tanks. I recall it was something like 1-2 feet these droplets can traverse... However, ich cannot live without a host, so the idea that ich is floating around everywhere in the air is nonsense (unless there is an infected tank nearby).

I thought it was around 7 feet?

 

[laga77]

Welcome to the dark side.

 

[nuxx]

I respect your decision. I think you understand this stuff as much as anybody. You collected good info, weighed your options, and made the choice that is right for you.
I think you will have very happy fish for many years and a hobby that gives you pleasure.
:thumbsup:

If it was just fish you had to worry about, then doing everything with TTM / Copper / etc... would be fine.

TTM is a relatively new technique and there are tanks and fish keepers that have had tanks running for years and years maybe just QTing based on observation and not pro-actively treating.

In a low stress QT environment, there is a high chance that a fish carrying ich will not show any signs and the fish would not be treated with copper or hypo (pre-TTM).

That means there are a huge percentage for tanks that are infected with ich, even in the care of extremely competent and cautious aquarists.

I'm not even sure if ich is a guaranteed killer. I feel it's more of an outside sign of a highly stressed or sick fish. I highly doubt a big fat happy fish would die from ich alone. It might lower the threshold of how much stress/sickness a healthy fish can take though.

For literally two years I've been scared to really look at my tank in the chance that I'd see a white dot or two. I've ruined many nights with my wife on my phone and distracted after "thinking" I saw something. Even ran my whole tank through hypo which cost months of time and $$$ to accomplish.

I'm not saying that QT is worthless, but QTing everything wet with the main reason being to catch ich seems a little over the top to me at this point. I've done this for 2 years religiously on this tank.

QT IMO is to catch proven quick tank killers, get fish used to you and being in captivity and develop a strong taste for prepared foods (still trying with my Bandit... ugh).

Also as it comes to inverts, I highly doubt there is a fraction of a percent of reef keepers who strictly QT fish that QT all coral and inverts (rock, etc...) for 72+ days without a fish. Even 72 days isn't always enough to guarantee ich is gone, just a strong suggestion that covers the bulk of strains in the majority of situations.

I tried, it really doesn't work. Despite spending $$$ on coral foods and supplements at about 40-50 days a high percentage of coral has browned out or died. At 72 days it's even worse. Once moved to the display, after a month or two everything has colored back up. Kind of really proving you can't really duplicate feeding fish and their waste purely with coral foods and additives.

I feel a little stupid with a big 150 gallon frag tank that can barely keep coral alive, also even with 30+ frags in each QT round, the tank looks comically empty. Changing the tank to have rock, fish and both coral and frags being more of a grow out tank just makes more sense. Having fish in there and waiting at least 30 days should catch any quick tank killers than might sneak it and hold on through initial dips... but not really an ich catcher. Even if ich came in to the frag system, if the fish were healthy and not stressed, it might not even show up...

Again, how many reef keepers who QT their fish religiously keep frag tanks with 0 fish?

 

[nuxx]

Welcome to the dark side.

LOL

If somebody could 100% pinpoint how ich could have got into my system (still not sure it is) and how 100% it would never get in again, I'd feel different.

Is there a special way to wash your hands? Special chemical to use? Special drying technique? Amount of time to ensure it's not on your hands after washing and drying?

Also, a 100% successful way of keeping coral thriving in a tank without fish. Same with sensitive inverts... was shocked I kept both Red and Blue Linckias alive for 45 days in a sterile tank. Sea Hare only made it to 40 days

 

[laga77]

I would go through all the trouble of extensive QT if it was 100% effective, but it is not. It is close, but not 100% So therefor I use a combination of an observation tank, good water quality, and a diet of fresh, frozen, and live foods. I cannot overstate the change I have seen in the way my fish act, as well as the improvement of their health since eliminating flake and pellet food three years ago. There is less aggression and picking on inverts and they just don`t get sick. Even when exposed to fish that have ICH. Do a little research into fish meal used for the pet food industry, and you will see it is just garbage. That and the fact that almost all dry fish food contains plants which marine fish cannot digest and it is my opinion that it puts fish under constant stress which builds up over time. Hopefully you will have good luck with your tank in the future.

 

[jmm]

plants which marine fish cannot digest .

Where does this statement come from and what methodology was used to arrive at this conclusion? I've seen it stated as fact on here more than once and it is kind of like proving a negative. Where's the study?