Ich (Cryptocaryon) Always Present In A Marine Tank - Your Thoughts and Experiences

[nuxx]

Just checking to see what the overall thoughts of Ich (Cryptocaryon) always being present in marine tanks.

I've gone back and forth over the years about this, but now am starting to think it's always there, no matter what you do...

Going into my new tank I had three existing fish:
Yellow Tang, Yellow Bellied Blue Tang and Black Ice Clown

I've had the fish for about 3 years, all since less than an inch in size. They have never had any signs of Ich in that time. They were in a very slow stress environment though.

My new tank 120x29x31" was setup and run with just cured dry rock and sand for over two months before any livestock was added.

First livestock to go in were a Tomini Tang and a trio of Pajama Cardinals. They all came from Diver's Den and then went through 6-7 weeks or quarantine. Nothing was ever spotted on them during QT time. Went through three treatments of PraziPro.

Next I QTed a Black Tang, Purple Tang and Chevron Tang. All in separate tanks. 6-7 weeks again, no signs of anything. Did three rounds of PraziPro as well. At the same time I did three rounds of Prazi to the Yellow, Yellow Bellied Blue and Black Ice clown in my old tank.

Added all the fish in together.

It has been around 7 weeks since I added those newer fish into the tank. There has been a little aggression. The Black Tang will chase the Purple Tang around for 30 minutes before lights out. I've noticed a nipped fin here and then on the Purple. No slash marks from scalpels or anything serious like that.

Two days ago I noticed a decent sized bite mark on the top fin of the Black Tang. Only fish big enough to do that is the Yellow Bellied Blue Tang.

That night before we had a party to go to I noticed the Yellow Bellied Blue and Black Tangs had some white spots on them. One on the Black and five on the Yellow Bellied Blue.

My heart just sank. I did everything right and was so careful. When I was QTing the last round of fish, I even had separate food containers and feeding tongs for each of the 5 running tanks.

Thoughts of taking out all fish, QTing with copper or hypo came to my mind. Then having the tank running fishless for 16 weeks.

After some reading and being talked off the ledge by my wife I started to think Ich must always be in the tank. There was no way it could have got past my QT procedure.

The Black and Purple Tangs were super stressed in QT. Losing most of their color and even the purple having various spasms when I was around. The Chevron came with a big bite on it, so it was stressed as well. During these conditions over 7-8 weeks, Ich would have shown up if they were the carriers.

Instead of going crazy and tearing down the tank I just made sure to add garlic and Zoe to the Nori I feed yesterday morning. Also I picked up some Dr G's anti-parasitic food for their dinner.

This morning the Black Tang's fin is pretty much healed and it's spot is gone and the Yellow Bellied Blue Tang is down from 5 spots to 1 faint spot. Funny thing is that the Black and Yellow Bellied Blue Tangs are the fattest and most healthy fish in the tank. Definitely get their fill each feeding.

I also discovered than the Black and Yellow Bellied Blue Tangs sleep about 3 inches away from each other at night, with the Purple Tang about 10 inches away. Found this out when I came back the night I saw the spots and turned the lights on late.

I have been slacking on feeding. Just doing un-treated Nori each morning and 5 times a week untreated Formula 1 and Formula 2 flakes. 2 times a week I'd feed Mysis with Selcon. From now on I'm going to do treated Nori each day with mixes of Dr Gs (If Spots show), Rods Original, Spirulina, Formula 1 and 2 and treated Mysis.

To sum up:
I'm starting to think Ich is always present in the tank. A moment of high stress seems to bring it around. Better nutrition and time seems to ward it off.

Would love to hear what everyone thinks about this. Heard of lots of people saying fish like Achilles Tangs will get Ich pop up every time a new fish is introduced (Stress), then going away in a day or two.

Also would love to hear if anyone has gone fishless for 8-16 weeks, QTed fish and had Ich return.

 

[IowaReefer]

Had ich a few times over the years, ALWAYS due to non-quarantined (or short quarantined) fish, and ALWAYS eradicated with hyposalinity. Chemicals have always seemed hit or miss for me and hypo has been the silver bullet to kill it off. If ich was always present in tanks, our fish would develop ich every time they get even a little stressed.

 

[rabbitrun]

I am under the belief its always in the tank also... Recently added a emperor angelfish, Exquisite fairy wrasse and flame angel after a 3 week quarantine although not as long as yours they looked fine in quarantine. Once they were added noticed a couple spots on them, however my hippo tang and 2 clowns showed no signs. The spots fell off in about 3 days its only been a week but have not seen any signs of ich on any of my fish.

Leads me to believe that its going to be dormant in most fish and any kind of stress will bring it out. So why would I want to leave my tank empty efor 6 to 8 weeks everytime I add a new fish if the stress of moving them might cause ich.

I am considering leaving it empty once I am done stocking. But there is also a chance that new corals/liverock/inverts could bring it in and i do not have the space or equipment to quarantine all of that.

So I am going to go with alot of the advice I was given and go with good water quality/nutritition/low stress to enhance my fish immune system to fight off the ich.

 

[ca1ore]

My stream-of-conscious thoughts - Of course it's possible to have an ich free tank; there are countless discussions here on RC that detail how to do it; however, I actually suspect that many/most tanks actually do have it. I think this whole notion of a 'stressed' fish is flawed. What I think we really ought to be thinking of is a fish in a weakened condition - either as a result of chronic aggression, longer-term malnutrition, or the initial acclimation process. I have had plenty of tanks over the years where I did not QT fish, suspected the presence of ich, yet never had an outbreak as a result of a transient 'stress' event. Other times things were completely stress free, yet ich wiped through my entire fish population. My other theory, based admittedly on my own anecdotal observations, is that there must be different strains of ich with different levels of aggressiveness. Otherwise I cannot explain how in some cases I have been able to mange ich in the long term, and in others it wiped my tank.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

I do not think it is always present, and having it appear does not mean you have to go fallow for 8 weeks to rid your tank of it.
I have had it a few times over the years and freshwater baths, a varied diet and rock solid parameters were enough for the fish to beat it themselves.

 

[hkgar]

From everything I have seen, tank transfer, hypo and copper are the ONLY way to kill off ICK. PraziPro does not. Any of the fish you took through QT and treated with PraziPro could still be harboring Ick after QT. White spots do not always show up as the parasite could be in the gills.

 

[DavidinGA]

I believe it is always present as well.

 

[mgrmax]

I am of the belief that it is airborne and has made the leap from fish to human already. Currently I'm in the process of transferring myself from my main floor bathtub to the jacuzzi tub upstairs:hmm3:

In all seriousness, from what I've seen and read, the disease moves from fish to sand bed and vice versa. If it can live in the sand for a period of time, could it not live in rocks or corals? Does everything need to be quarantined for 100% guarantee?

All I know is ich along with brook (I believe) wiped out my tank once and left me fish-less for months.

 

[Dmorty217]

Ich is only present due to improper QTing of fish, inverts and rock.

 

[hkgar]

A good read

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196

 

[HumbleFish]

I voted "No, it has to be introduced and can be removed". However, you have to follow strict QT protocols to ensure it doesn't get introduced into your tank. QT'ing all fish purchases is vital, and IMO you even have to prophylactically treat in QT because symptoms of ich are not always visible. There are also small percentages of fish that have temporary immunity to the parasite, but are still carriers & can still infect other fish. So, another reason to prophylactically treat.

Then there's the matter of QT'ing every coral/invert to deal with the possibility of encysted tomonts attaching themselves, or even free swimming theronts being in a droplet of water. You have to maintain a dedicated coral/invert QT (fishless frag tanks work well), and keep all new purchases in there for 72 days (same as going fallow). Add a new coral/invert, and the 72 day clock starts over.

Couple all that with having to be paranoid about things like cross contamination (hands, nets, etc.) going from one tank to another, and I concede it can be challenging to have an aquarium that is truly ich free. And keep in mind nothing is ever 100%, no matter how diligent you are. I especially feel sorry for noobs who are never told about any of this until after it happens to them.

 

[MrClam]

This shouldnt be a poll. I understand what you are trying to ask but your question is fundamentally illogical. Lets think it through.

Premise 1: Ich is inherently present. Obviously Ich isnt always going to be in a tank. If I have an empty tank full of RO/DI water and salt there will be no Ich. So it has to be introduced. In addition, Ich is a parasite and needs a host to survive. A tank without an adequate host can not sustain Ich (separate frag tank system).

Premise 2: The introduction of Ich can not be avoided. This premise is also flawed. Ich is not airborne so must come in via an introduction to the tank. If I add dry rock that has been bleached it obviously will be devoid of life. Someone who maintains a fish-less system will not have Ich.

So we have established that there can be an Ich free system (your poll question). The interesting question is whether or not it is feasible to try to maintain an Ich free system. Meaning can you QT sufficiently to prevent entry or are you willing to maintain a fish-less tank.

To QT to prevent Ich is the question at hand. There is plenty of literature available because of commercial fisheries. The Ich life cycle estimates vary from one study to another but is agreed to be roughly 6-8 weeks. Anything would have to be QTed for a mininmum of that time to eliminate Ich. But people do not realize that Ich life cycle functions on a bell curve, as does most of biology. Think of height in humans. The average height may be 5'10'', but there could be a family that are all above 6'6''. The same works with Ich. It is possible that one "strain" could have a life cycle of 10 weeks. So it is impossible to ever guarantee all Ich will be eliminated via QT. The best you can do is lengthen the QT to increase the probability that all parasites are dead. This applies to anything wet going in the tank.

This does not work for fish, who act as hosts. A fish with a healthy immune system may act as a psudo carrier for Ich. If one parasite is survives it will not produce visible symptoms. This parasite will take several weeks to pass through a life cycle and produce the parasite form (Trophont) that is visible on the fish. This would mean the fish would appear healthy for more than 8 weeks even though Ich was present. Theoretically a fish could go on for years with a baseline small infection. The other option is to treat all fish, but treatment carries some risk of not completely eradicating Ich. Copper or Hypo carry more risk of leaving some Ich alive because they allow for variability in parasite susceptibility and correct dosage levels and times. Tank transfer, as far as I can see, would come closer to a guarantee of no Ich if done for a long enough interval and under the right conditions.

Thus, the question for your poll should be "Experiences on the effectiveness of an 8 wk QT" or "Opinion: Is QT for Ich really worth it" rather than "Is Ich always present in a marine tank". HTH

 

[jrozzi]

read this in an article called facts about marine ich-

If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

so I guess that answers that.

 

[ca1ore]

From everything I have seen, tank transfer, hypo and copper are the ONLY way to kill off ICK. PraziPro does not.

Prazipro does not claim to kill ich; nor does anyone with experience advocate it.

 

[ca1ore]

If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

so I guess that answers that.

I have no idea whether this is really true or not (beyond the 'well, I read it on the internet so it must be true'). I do believe that there are things we don't understand about ich because my own personal experiences have been 'odd'. The mere fact that so many people claim to have had ich, and it just went away; as opposed to folks who have had it wipe their tanks - and I have experienced both - suggest that something is going on (beyond just mis diagnosis). If ich does indeed lose potency over a period of time, that could certainly explain how in some cases it is manageable and in others not; it also would suggest that even if you believe you have ich in your tank, QT remains crucial against not just other diseases, but a 'reenergized' ich strain.

 

[nuxx]

I only use PraziPro as a preventative treatment.

Just for flukes which is very common. It happens to treat a few other things as well and is pretty easy on the fish. I know it doesn't do anything for Ich.

Now here's a question...

Are the general guidelines for QT completely wrong?

Should every fish ever purchased when in QT be treated with hypo or copper? Everything I've ever read said QT is more of an observation of a fish for 4 to 8 weeks.

From what I'm reading here, is that no matter what the condition of the fish, to make sure nothing gets through, you have to user copper / hypo.

Also part of QT should be to acclimate fish to life in an aquarium. Some fish take a long time to even eat. Starting a treatment of hypo / copper just seems like it would make life on a fish very hard.

So let's say you have a 100% healthy and fat new fish.

Should you:
1. Put fish into QT spend 1-2 weeks getting fish used to aquarium life.
2. Then no matter what the fish looks like go right into hypo / copper for a few weeks.
3. Then keep the fish in QT without treatments for up to 8 weeks to make sure nothing go through?

Seems like most 4-8 week QT procedures listed would not guarantee fish with Ich going into your DT. Seems like a 10-16 week QT procedure. Would then the same need to be done for inverts / coral (time wise - not copper/hypo) to make sure the water they came in didn't have Ich?

Like I said 7-8 weeks no signs of anything with my fish. Then 7-8 more weeks after QT and in the DT before anything came up.

Also, has anyone ever removed everything from the tank for 8-16 weeks, treated all fish with copper/hypo and had Ich come back?

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One more question:
The spots on the Yellow Bellied Blue Tang were not really grain of sand/salt crystal looking. Just white spots (round), a little raised but didn't look granular like Ich I've seen before. Also 4 out of 5 spots were gone in a day's time. Could it be something other than Ich? Would Ich even disappear that fast after being seen? (24 hours).

 

[jrozzi]

what it comes down to is basically how much are you willing to gamble the people that aren't willing to gamble anything well they are the ones medicating during QT and then waiting another few weeks just to be safe. There's nothing wrong with that they will probably never see any disease in there DT. Im more of the guy that watches a fish in QT for about 10 days I don't medicate unless I have too. I don't think fish like living in medicated waters. I think if a fish is eating and acting normal he is going to be fine. This has never done me wrong but like I said I may be more likely to let a disease slip by and it could cost me big one day.

 

[ca1ore]

I have posted here on RC many time that it all comes down to the level of risk you are willing to bear. There are lost of folks here more practiced in the art of QT than I, but, frankly I'm willing to just observe fish in QT and I don't proactively treat with anything other than an initial 2 weeks of NGP to ease acclimation and maybe prazipro. I generally QT my fish for at least 8 weeks and only treat for ich if I observe it.

Now, if you want to approach 100% certainty that ich doesn't exit! I think you should probably run all new fish through TT. Then observe for other stuff.

 

[HumbleFish]

read this in an article called facts about marine ich-

If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has "˜worn itself out' and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

so I guess that answers that.

Link to this article please? Or at least tell me what magazine I need to buy to read it.

 

[tmz]

A tank can be free of crytocaryon irritans. QT of all new fish with preventative tank transfer treatment will cut the odds of introducing it to near zero.Never see it in my tanks housing over 50 fish. It's possible for a single strain to stop reproducing via a sexual reproduction after a long period of time. Only one study I recall put that at 11months;it might take years.

Gary's link in post 10 to Steve's writeup is definately worth reading if you keep marine fish.