"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
Yes, I am a firm believer in QT - but I also believe you should only to treat when necessary. I found hypo is really hard on the fish. However, Cupramine can't be used for some.
Mandarins are so hard to get used to captivity anyway - I think a refugium type QT separate from the main tank and watching them is the only way to do it. They usually are resistant to ich anyway - and over a month you would see it if they had it.
Sorry about your loss - Mandarins are great fish, but difficult under the best of conditions.
Mandarins are so hard to get used to captivity anyway - I think a refugium type QT separate from the main tank and watching them is the only way to do it. They usually are resistant to ich anyway - and over a month you would see it if they had it.
Sorry about your loss - Mandarins are great fish, but difficult under the best of conditions.
jeffbrig
Premium Member
It is my intent to treat all of my fish with hyposalinity as a means of eradicating ich before they go into the display. I do believe that every fish you buy is at least carrying the parasite, even if you don't see visible bumps yet. In both batches of fish that I have purchased, at least 1 fish showed visible signs of ich before I even started dropping the salinity. (I try to give the fish a few days to settle in and start eating before I mess with the tanks too much).
I have not seen any evidence that hyposalinity in itself is stressful to the fish (although being in the tank doing lots of water changes IS). The research I've read suggests it's actually easier from a metabolic perspective for fish to osmoregulate in lower sg water. The only drawback is that flushing of the kidneys is impaired, which can become a complication if the fish spends too long in hyposalinity.
Here's a shot of the beautiful 5" PBT we lost:
And the purple tang who is doing great:
As far as the mandarin goes, I've resolved that I will not purchase another one unless I've seen it eat prepared foods.
I have not seen any evidence that hyposalinity in itself is stressful to the fish (although being in the tank doing lots of water changes IS). The research I've read suggests it's actually easier from a metabolic perspective for fish to osmoregulate in lower sg water. The only drawback is that flushing of the kidneys is impaired, which can become a complication if the fish spends too long in hyposalinity.
Here's a shot of the beautiful 5" PBT we lost:
And the purple tang who is doing great:
As far as the mandarin goes, I've resolved that I will not purchase another one unless I've seen it eat prepared foods.
poknsnok
New member
I have had nothing but problems when Ive tried to QT. I have ich now because my luck ran out. I am seriously considering removing all fish from my system to a qt tank... I might even get rid of my fish and have a "coral/invert only tank.. at least for now... Jeff.. what is your set up on the 55 qt?? I see you say you are adding a skimmer. I assume you havent been using one?? what type of filtration are you using??
reefrubble
Premium Member
Isn't ICH present in your tank all the time,or am I wrong here? Ted
jeffbrig
Premium Member
My 55g has a fully matured Pengium 400 biowheel. Great for breaking down ammonia quickly, bad for long term nitrate build up. Fortunately, you're already doing water changes in a QT, so the nitrate isn't a problem. I have a MJ1200 in there for added water movement, and just added the remora to try to get some skimming action. I'm unsure just how effective a skimmer will be while in hypo, but it should work well at normal salinity.
The tank is barebottom, with some PVC fittings and structures to provide cover for the fish. The idea is to eliminate anything that would provide a substrate for ich reproduction, as well as simplify cleaning.
I pull out the filters and swish them in the discard water whenever I syphon or do a water change, and I run carbon in the back of the biowheel whenever I'm not actively medicating. All water changes are made using seasoned water from the display tank, diluted with RO/DI as needed during hypo.
The tank is barebottom, with some PVC fittings and structures to provide cover for the fish. The idea is to eliminate anything that would provide a substrate for ich reproduction, as well as simplify cleaning.
I pull out the filters and swish them in the discard water whenever I syphon or do a water change, and I run carbon in the back of the biowheel whenever I'm not actively medicating. All water changes are made using seasoned water from the display tank, diluted with RO/DI as needed during hypo.
guitarfish
Premium Member
Hi Ted,
No, ich isn't present all the time. I have an ich-free tank, going on 18mos now. It's a beautiful thing!
Here's a short, to the point article...
ATJ's Marin Ich page
reefrubble
Premium Member
guitarfish,I have never had an ich out break,knock on wood,but I thought that the pathogen ( not sure of the spelling) was in all reef tank systems. I guess I have been lucky,with never having ich in my tank. Ted
guitarfish
Premium Member
In short, ich is an obligate parasite, meaning it needs to attach to a host (fish). In a tank that has no fish, any existing ich will die out. Now, if you introduce fish that have been cleaned of ich, via copper or hyposalinity, you can ensure an ich-free tank.
There's lots of misinformation about ich, unfortunately. Things are repeated and spread that often times are simply false. More and more people are starting to understand ich, I think, and that's a good thing.
There's lots of misinformation about ich, unfortunately. Things are repeated and spread that often times are simply false. More and more people are starting to understand ich, I think, and that's a good thing.
poknsnok
New member
I had fish in a tank for 9 months.. not a sign of ich... added fish and in a week my regal tang was covered.. not having a cycled qt tank I lost the tang yesterday.. all the other fish are.... ok. the Kole shows some still.. some argued that it wasnt necessarily the new fish that caused the ich to break out. that it was always in my system and some stress or change in condition caused the breakout. I have to dispute that. timing of the additions are too coincidental.
I plan on removing ALL the fish as soon as I have a suitable hospital tank to accomodate all the fish and attempt hypo. been told my my LFS who is extremely knowledgeable that hypo is unreliable and that formalin/copper is the way to go. but I killed fish with copper. my plan is to make my reef ICH FREE by leaving it fishless for at least 8 weeks. and if the fish die from the treatment/hypo so be it... the corals are the real investment.
I plan on removing ALL the fish as soon as I have a suitable hospital tank to accomodate all the fish and attempt hypo. been told my my LFS who is extremely knowledgeable that hypo is unreliable and that formalin/copper is the way to go. but I killed fish with copper. my plan is to make my reef ICH FREE by leaving it fishless for at least 8 weeks. and if the fish die from the treatment/hypo so be it... the corals are the real investment.
I have a simple quetion about the natural life cycle of ick. I have read that it is an obligate parasite, and if there are no fish in a tank for more than 40-50 days, it will die out. Any confirmation on this? My reason for asking is that new new yellow tang (about 1 month in the tank), has developed what appears to be ick over the past 2-3 days. I only have 2 other fish in the tank (perculas) that don't show any signs of ick presently. All fish are active, good eaters. The tank is a 55 gal reef, about 4 months old, seemingly well established with stable water parameters. I don't believe I can catch the tang due to the amount of coral and hiding places without completely dismantling the tank. Any suggestions?
guitarfish
Premium Member
There's an overwhelming amount of evidence that hyposalinity treatment is effective against ich. It isn't stressful on fish, however, if fish are in hyposaline conditions for a lengthy period of time, it's been reported that they can develop kidney problems. I don't know all the details, but I do know that many people have had fish at hypo levels for 45-60 days without problems.
Lrood, I have found 30 days is sufficient for ich to die off in fallow (fishless) tank. There's ample evidence that 40-50 days is plenty of time.
It sounds like the yellow tang was carrying ich when you acquired him. I had the same thing happen, the spots didn't show for almost 2 weeks. Sooner or later the perculas will show spots, it may take a couple cycles.
I caught a yellow tang once. He was a voracious eater of nori, so I clipped some nori to the netting inside of a large 8" net I had. I rested the net on some rock, it's handle sticking out of the tank. Within 24 hours he was going into the net and eating the nori.
I came home from work one night, put more nori in. He went right in after it, and one quick flip of the net upward and he was caught. Catching fish is a major pain in the rear.
Lrood, I have found 30 days is sufficient for ich to die off in fallow (fishless) tank. There's ample evidence that 40-50 days is plenty of time.
It sounds like the yellow tang was carrying ich when you acquired him. I had the same thing happen, the spots didn't show for almost 2 weeks. Sooner or later the perculas will show spots, it may take a couple cycles.
I caught a yellow tang once. He was a voracious eater of nori, so I clipped some nori to the netting inside of a large 8" net I had. I rested the net on some rock, it's handle sticking out of the tank. Within 24 hours he was going into the net and eating the nori.
I came home from work one night, put more nori in. He went right in after it, and one quick flip of the net upward and he was caught. Catching fish is a major pain in the rear.
Triggerfish
Active member
1 more week of hypo..so far so good.
i lost both my firefish..freakin really ****ed..
my bluethroat made one leap out..i saw this and couldn't find the fish..must have landed either under stand or in corner where i do not have access.
i removed my bluethroat but still 2 days later the 2nd one disappeared.
i lost one of my blue gudeons..he just never really ate and was emaciated.
my clown is also becoming emaciated..i dont know why.
maybe hypo is effecting him...
i lost both my firefish..freakin really ****ed..
my bluethroat made one leap out..i saw this and couldn't find the fish..must have landed either under stand or in corner where i do not have access.
i removed my bluethroat but still 2 days later the 2nd one disappeared.
i lost one of my blue gudeons..he just never really ate and was emaciated.
my clown is also becoming emaciated..i dont know why.
maybe hypo is effecting him...
poknsnok
New member
trigger... seems like the hypo is hard on these fish. guitar.. you say hypo isnt hard on the fish... how do you figure that? I think both hypo and formalin/copper are hard. I believe qt and observation is the way to go. if something pops up you treat.. only then do you want to subject the fish to this cure....Im curious. what ratio of fish survive QT and what ratio survive treatment??.. I think its pretty middle of the road.. maybe 50/50
Triggerfish
Active member
i would agree with a 4 week pre-hypo quarantine treatment for all new fish.. the reward out weighs the risk, IMO.
and i have developed a strong opinion since i have been dealing with this since May.
and i have developed a strong opinion since i have been dealing with this since May.
guitarfish
Premium Member
When water is gradually diluted to hyposaline conditions, the osmotic pressure on fish is reduced. It takes less energy for them to function, breathe, etc. It has been observed that fish badly infected with ich suddenly have more energy and vitality when they are put into hyposaline conditions, and this greatly aids them in surviving the outbreak.
Why do you feel hypo is hard on fish? I have never seen any evidence of this in the fish that I've treated, nor have I heard this from others who have done many more of these treatments than I.
Copper is a toxin. When fish are treated with copper, great care is required to not kill the fish along with the ich. Copper can cause organ damage in some fish and long periods of exposure are harmful. I liken copper to "chemotherapy" for fish, although that's an exaggeration on my part.
Hyposalinity treatment, on the other hard, doesn't appear to subject fish to stress. The process of diluting the water is stressful on the fishkeeper, though, no argument there. And I suppose if not done carefully, fish can kinda freak out from all the activity. When I do water changes to drop to hypo, I siphon water out quickly, and then I drip the replacement water in over a few hours so that there's as little "action" as possible around the tank, to reduce stress.
Why do you feel hypo is hard on fish? I have never seen any evidence of this in the fish that I've treated, nor have I heard this from others who have done many more of these treatments than I.
Copper is a toxin. When fish are treated with copper, great care is required to not kill the fish along with the ich. Copper can cause organ damage in some fish and long periods of exposure are harmful. I liken copper to "chemotherapy" for fish, although that's an exaggeration on my part.
Hyposalinity treatment, on the other hard, doesn't appear to subject fish to stress. The process of diluting the water is stressful on the fishkeeper, though, no argument there. And I suppose if not done carefully, fish can kinda freak out from all the activity. When I do water changes to drop to hypo, I siphon water out quickly, and then I drip the replacement water in over a few hours so that there's as little "action" as possible around the tank, to reduce stress.
Triggerfish
Active member
i really do not think there is any refutable discussion by any of the 'experts', on what the preferred treatment would be.
if done correctly, hypo is by far the preferred treatment.
copper is poison as you mentioned and many things can go wrong both short and long term. also,,the whole method of the treatment is dependent on a 'test kit' and most if not all, are vague at best.
if done correctly, hypo is by far the preferred treatment.
copper is poison as you mentioned and many things can go wrong both short and long term. also,,the whole method of the treatment is dependent on a 'test kit' and most if not all, are vague at best.
poknsnok
New member
Why do you feel hypo is hard on fish? I have never seen any evidence of this in the fish that I've treated, nor have I heard this from others who have done many more of these treatments than Im ( quote from guitar )
I feel it is hard simply because of trigger's experience and others I have read where it seems a relatively large % of fish die during the treat ment. i myself have not tried it but I more than likely will on my group of fish that have been exposed. trigger says his fish seem emaciated, and has lost some during hypo. I have been told by a very reputable local LFS owner it can be stressful.
I will be in most likelyhood hypo on my whole group of fish soon and will report in. regardless of the risks I need to do it while the tank lays fallow
I feel it is hard simply because of trigger's experience and others I have read where it seems a relatively large % of fish die during the treat ment. i myself have not tried it but I more than likely will on my group of fish that have been exposed. trigger says his fish seem emaciated, and has lost some during hypo. I have been told by a very reputable local LFS owner it can be stressful.
I will be in most likelyhood hypo on my whole group of fish soon and will report in. regardless of the risks I need to do it while the tank lays fallow
Triggerfish
Active member
i do not believe any fish have died directly as a result of the treatment. maybe the gramma..but tough to say.
the blue gudgeon never really ate even prior to treatment.
the firefish just leaped out
and the clown..well..not sure what's up with him...may or may not be related...sort of doubtful
other fish
asfur angel
maroon clown
bluethroat trig
blenny
blue gudgeon
tricolor wrasse
coral beauty
bangaii card
the blue gudgeon never really ate even prior to treatment.
the firefish just leaped out
and the clown..well..not sure what's up with him...may or may not be related...sort of doubtful
other fish
asfur angel
maroon clown
bluethroat trig
blenny
blue gudgeon
tricolor wrasse
coral beauty
bangaii card
jeffbrig
Premium Member
Of the 9 fish I've run through hypo, I have only lost 2. One was the mandarin that wouldn't eat and wasted away, the other was the PBT that expired inexplicably overnight. (The more we read, the more we suspect the PBT may have been cyanided.) None of the fish showed any signs of stress from the hypo treatment, and I do not believe that hypo was a factor in either of those deaths.
Many people have problems during QT simply because of water quality. When you move to a bare tank devoid of mature biological filtration, it's hard to maintain water quality. From what I've observed, even filter media seeded in the main tank's sump still has some catching up to do once it's thrust into action in a QT. On top of that you have all the stress of a new environment, and you're doing it in a smaller tank that's probably a less than ideal size for the fish. It's not surprising that some fish can't cope with this....who is to say whether they would have survived if not in hypo?
Thinking back to a recent thread/poll here on RC, several people reported mortaility rates of 25-50% when introducing new livestock. I'll wager these people would report similar "failure" rates if they were using QT and hypo treatment.
I think the majority of people who speak against hypo do so out of a knee-jerk reaction to the thought of having saltwater fish at such a low salinity. It sounds wrong, looks wrong on paper, it's unnatural, etc., but the research is there to back it up as an effective treatment practice.
Many people have problems during QT simply because of water quality. When you move to a bare tank devoid of mature biological filtration, it's hard to maintain water quality. From what I've observed, even filter media seeded in the main tank's sump still has some catching up to do once it's thrust into action in a QT. On top of that you have all the stress of a new environment, and you're doing it in a smaller tank that's probably a less than ideal size for the fish. It's not surprising that some fish can't cope with this....who is to say whether they would have survived if not in hypo?
Thinking back to a recent thread/poll here on RC, several people reported mortaility rates of 25-50% when introducing new livestock. I'll wager these people would report similar "failure" rates if they were using QT and hypo treatment.
I think the majority of people who speak against hypo do so out of a knee-jerk reaction to the thought of having saltwater fish at such a low salinity. It sounds wrong, looks wrong on paper, it's unnatural, etc., but the research is there to back it up as an effective treatment practice.
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