"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[jeffbrig]

Let me throw out another question to you guys. In my ich-induced QT paranoia, I face a slight dilemma. A local reefer was kind enough to give me several coral frags from his system, all are pre-mounted on a rock or piece of shell. His tank/fish were very clean, but you never know if it is truly ICH-FREE.

After holding the corals a few days for observation (quasi QT), I should get these into my tank into better lighting ASAP. However, what is the risk of introducing ich on the rock that these corals are attached to? In theory, ich in its reproductive stage could be attached to the rocks. However, I don't have the equipment to keep the corals in a fishless tank for 4+ weeks to wait it out.

One one hand, I'm thinking of scrubbbing the rocks with a toothbrush. That may help get rid of any algae, but I don't know if it would have any effect on dormant ich that could potentially be on the rocks.

One the other, I think it should be ok, since it will still be a few weeks before my fish move from QT to the display. I really hesitate to break the corals off the rocks and attempt to re-attach them to something else.

Don't know if I'm just paranoid now or what.

 

[guitarfish]

Think of all you've been trhough with ich. What does your gut tell you? Do you really want to risk that?

One thing you may be able to do is use some eggcrate of PVC to make a platform in your QT tank so that the corals are up high, very close to the light.

I've been wanting to add some corals to my tank for a while, but won't until my QT tank is vacant. I intend to get some corals and QT them for at least a couple weeks, so that any cysts can hatch and then die.

 

[guyguerra]

Triggerfish, now I know how Al Gore must have felt when he said he "invented the internet". Reading my own post makes me feel stupid, but to a degree I believe my inadequacies helped the Ich get a better hold in my tank. I'm sure Darwin couldn't cause mutations in weeks. Sorry if I was over zealous.
There has been another thread that guitarfish and I (if he doesn't't want to disassociate from me due to my last comment) that convinced me to stop my copper treatment early, but I sat in front of the QT and can swear I see another Ich spot on my Kole tang, so steady the coarse until I'm sure it's gone. This fish is a little harder to tell Ich spots because it has white specs in its coloring. But it's not worth the risk for a fish, and patience is all the difference in the world when fight Ich.
Two months ago I had a tread going with Steve Pro about QT'ing corals and he gives a convincing debate in favor of doing that, yet I just added a beautiful brain coral without following his advice. Like you, I don't have a third tank that hasn't been treated with copper, and mine is currently being used for the group I'm dealing with. There chances are slim, but it is possible to introduce the parasite that way. My LFS disagrees with me on QT'ing corals, but Steve's advice is very good, IMO. Here's a link to that thread, which states a convincing point to QT everything. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=701137

 

[AquAsylum]

Sort of an update...

We ran out of kick ich and started using the RxP. Parasite is far more visible now. I think it is a combination of its continued reproduction and that we're not using the Kick Ich. It was no cure, but I think it was a decent treatment. I think we're going to have to tear down our tank and do copper, but it will have to wait b/c our QT is full of rock right now and we're moving a 300 gallon into the house (for FW).

So I'm thinking about trying a super dose of the Kick Ich until we can do the move. Any opinions on which of the following would be better- Either recommended dose, but every day for the treatment instead of on the scheduled days, or double the dose on the scheduled days?

We lost the black and white ocellaris this week. I hold myself fully responsible. I'm not sure what they had; it wasn't just ich, it looked like bad lympho but I couldn't be sure. I tried a FW dip and it went terribly wrong. The water was ph and temp matched to the tank, and they were fine for about 4 minutes and then just completely shut down. Turned almost white in color, went sideways, stopped breathing. One of them seemed to be bleeding even. I tried putting them back in the tank, but they were gone. The tangs started nudging them, to get them to wake up. It was very sad.

 

[plaz]

Hi Laura,
I am sorry for your loss. All of us have done things that we felt bad about in this hobby - you are doing the best you can, and you just have to try to learn from the mistakes.

I still remember when I had to get the Blue Hippo we lost to ich out of the main tank - my larger Yellow Tang had always acted like she thought he was her baby. He was on the bottom gasping. She literally threw her body over his to block my net. Very sad indeed (and some people think fish don't have feelings)!

Hang in there!

 

[pecan2phat]

Hi Laura,
I've found that fresh water dips for affected fish are just too stressfull if the fish is too far gone. They are great in the beginning and even midway into the infection to implode some or most of the parasites off the body. In my recent bout with the parasite, it's also the secondary infections that have taken place due to the lowered immune system of the fish.
With my treatments of KI, it seems that if the parasite infestation is heavy or full blown, KI has no positive results. I say this due to dosing 150% of the recommended dosage for almost 3 straight treatments and as you had also experienced, the fish were getting worse. I went through about 6L of KI & 3L of Rally in those treatments.
It's funny how we or at least I would dump a good size of pocket change into this product when most users have reported little to no positive results but if it worked once (which it did for me in my 55g FOWLR at work), then it's got to be worth a try. So how come we are so eager to shut the door on any other product that hits the market?
I lost 6 of the 10 fish that are in that tank. The remaining four are looking better and I think they will make it. I made a few mistakes that might have aided in the lost of some of the 6 that died (starting a new treatment without removing the old medications) but things are looking better and hopefully that I won't have a total wipeout due to this bout of crypto.
Good luck it you decide to continue with the KI. On the manufacturer's tech or data info, it was stated that the initial "loading dose" could be double or 4 oz per 25g of tank water then as an "aggressive" treatment, you can dose 1.5 x of the recommended dosage or 3 oz per 25g of tank water every other day. (this is what I did) It goes on to say that no more than the double dose should be dosed at anytime.

 

[Triggerfish]

Any opinions on which of the following would be better- Either recommended dose, but every day for the treatment instead of on the scheduled days, or double the dose on the scheduled days?

based on my experience alone, i cannot recommend this product at any dosage. after 3L it appeared to do nothing.

The water was ph and temp matched to the tank, and they were fine for about 4 minutes and then just completely shut down.

i have never had a fish that would go through more than 2-3 min of a pure FW dip that did not begin to go into ossmotic shock and lay motionless on it's side.
i have no idea how folks treat for 15m.

 

[Triggerfish]

Ich Update:

Well,,it's been about 6 months dealing with this thing and the tank appears to be holding steady - the cycle continues over and over with basically the same fish getting re-infected.
Summary
>Kick Ich - no effect on reducing population
>garlic - added to all food - possible positive effect
>cleaner gobies(2 noticed) actively pick at fish throughout day - these fish are also infected.
>fish continue to feed readily and very active
>ich cycle seems to be very fast, reappear every 3-5 days,,but not any worse,,in fact, possibly a bit less.
>no deaths to date
>system currently has 16 fish

The fish seem to be living with the parasite on a daily basis. The population does not look like it is increasing.
the fish are very active throughout the day and feed nonstop.

Action Plan:
>maintain water quality
>continue adding garlic to food
>try ginger root treatment
>possibly either fix my UV or get another and run with slow controlled flow

I will keep updating to indicate the degree of parasite population.
But basically the tank is not being treated with anything. just garlic and cleaner gobies.
not sure if it will increase, decrease or just remain the same for years down the road.
oddly enough,,some dude wanted to use my tank (ich and all) for the banner on his new site:
http://www.reefaquaria.net/forum/

Note on Garlic:


not sure if anything to do with it but i added back my niger trigger and within 2 days he was loaded with visible parasites. this fish was in another tank and not being fed garlic.
i have since removed the fish - quick net grab from surface - and put back in QT.

 

[AquAsylum]

Trigger- what is the display of the parasite on your fish? Our fish are behaving normally, active and eating, but I don't know when the parasite's presence will start to shut them down. Right now, I'd say 4 fish show signs of the parasite (out of 14). The hippo and neon goby look the worst, and some days better than others. We've been 5 months with ich, and it seems unlikely to get them through another 7 months if the population increases at all.

 

[Triggerfish]

Trigger- what is the display of the parasite on your fish?

at it's worst (2 weeks ago), the angel would be pretty heavily infested. good sized parasites on its body and all fins.
it has seemed to have subsided a bit over past 2 weeks.

i think fish would succumb with severe infestation within the gill area..basically suffocating the fish. what would prevent that from happening besides full eradication, i have no idea..luck perhaps.

i certainly would not want to have this thing around for more than another year... if it doesn't eradicate over time, not sure what the next approach would be.. i think, if everything else remains stable the fish can get along fine with small infestations,,and some fish just do not display the spots..partial immunity perhaps...

 

[plaz]

That is what got my original Hippo - he went for a year with mild infections that he would fight off. I kept being told it was normal - nothing would keep Hippos from getting it. Then one round got into his gills... and it was too late. After that, I decided to start this quest to be free of ich once and for all.

Prior to loosing him, 2 rounds of Kick Ich didn't end up helping at all (seemed to at first - but it came right back). I did loose a cleaner shrimp right after I found him playing directly under the drip. If you have any shrimp and up the dose, I would get them out first. Feeding garlic and luck may help get you through until you go to QT again... alot cheaper than the kick-ich (except I think you said you already bought the kick-ich.

 

[jimmyj7090]

Trigger, sounds like your about to give up on "the quest"?

Today is the big day for me, one last inspection and if all looks well I'll be moving the first few fish back to the display.

I was concerned about not being able to see any subtle spots under low light (NO florescent on the QT) so I set up a 400w 10K + 2x96W actinic over the QT last night. The fish were terrified, picture 14 fish huddled together under the shadow of the centerbrace.

Anyway, wish me luck, the clowns and CBB will go in tonight unless I see anything suspicious (I just turned on the big light, giving it a while to allow the fish to relax before I do my final inspection).

If all goes well, I'll be adding the onespot rabbit, then the PBT in a day or two. I'll give it a week or so and if no signs of re-infection, the 6-line, clown goby and bi-color blenny will go in, in that order.

that plan is based on the reputation of PBT's to be a-holes unless they are introduced last (I'm assuming that doesn't apply to tiny fish like the 6-line, clown goby and bi-color blenny, I want to put them in last since they are the hardest to catch)

Crossing fingers

jk

 

[jimmyj7090]

Oh yea, just to finish my last post.

I most likely won't re-introduce the purple tang and the bluestripe rabbit since I don't want to over stock and the P.tang is pretty big, I would rather keep the PBT.

I guess I'll need to get an adoptive parent for those fish.

 

[guitarfish]

I've found if I sit on the floor in front of the QT I see spots easier. Something about the light shining down makes it easier. Let us know how it goes!! Hoping for success !!

 

[jimmyj7090]

Good suggestion, thanks

At this point I'm willing to say with confidence, "these fish look awsome". Both rabbit fish remain scared of the light and in stress mode, but all the rest look great.

My CBB's colors look much better than when I got it, it is fat, and I just realized it has grown a lot in the past 9 months.

I'm going back to the QT now to sit there and wait until both percs and the CBB are in the trap at the same time, then a quick yank on the fishing line and the transiton begins.

 

[Triggerfish]

Trigger, sounds like your about to give up on "the quest"?

nah,,,it's just gonna take a bit longer...however,,the good thing is that there will be multiple avenues taken to cure this thing..
bit of trial/error.. luckily fish are healthy and able to deal with what the heck i'm doing.

all fish inspected 2x day for any signs of distress,,basically anything less than a very active fish,,then it's out of the display and will not return. my niger trigger has been the only one so far since tank has been set back up.

i've got about 17 fish in there now and if went fallow again it would be for no less than 3 months..that would be a quarantine nightmare...
we'll see what transpires over time here.

i wish you luck in your approach..sounds very promising...

 

[jimmyj7090]

78 days of patience, I finally said F it. Both clown pairs, CBB, PBT, 6-line, and bi-color are all inthe display or frag tank.

They all look perfect, colors better than in the QT, active, and super happy. Percs found a RBTA to host in after a few mins, Maroons are still checking out the frag tank. Everybody is munching on the plentiful live food thriving in the display and frag tanks.

 

[guitarfish]

Both clown pairs, CBB, PBT, 6-line, and bi-color are all inthe display or frag tank.

Well heck, how about a few pictures?!?!?!

 

[jimmyj7090]

I'd love to post a pic but I seem to be technolgically imapared as I have yet to figure out how to post a pic here.

I'll keep posting, I figure if I don't see any spots in the next month, I might have actually acheived the "the quest"

 

[guitarfish]

If you wanna email me a nice quality pic, I can post it for you. But if you're gonna be on RC, you gotta be able to post pics. You can setup a free account at www.Photobucket.com. Otherwise, you'll get blasted with things like this: