"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

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HEre my story goes...
Recently purchased fish about 2 months ago. Purchased a blue hippo tang a rabbit fox face and a yellow tang. Put them all in my display without QT'ing because i have recently QT'd my display fishless for about 1.5 months. They all broke out with ich. I began feeding seaweed with garlic enticer from seachem. I began thawing the homemade frozen food with supplemental stuff like selcon. And for the past month they've been free of ich and disease. Amazing.

just happen to have read the thread above..
Guitarfish - have you tried a freshwater dip :o ? ?
those work some times very nicely.
 
I wouldnt copper your main tank.

aaron - the dip temporarily breaks the cysts, I beleive, but thats it.
 
Freshwater dips aren't effective against ich, as it's burrowed beneath the skin. I'm going to start the climb back to normal salinity this week, and remove all the crushed coral from my QT on the weekend. Hopefully by early next week I can start adding copper.
 
been following this post, I'm gonna be doing a 55 for my emperor, puffer, and butterfly. I was gonna do the hypo for 6 weeks with these guys. Now I'm not sure if I should seeing that you guys still have parasite. Should I do copper instead ?? And if I were to do copper how long should I treat the fish in the 55 QT tank with copper ? And keep them in there for a total of how many weeks ?
 
I was never a big copper fan because it is a TOXIN. Most fish can handle Cupramine up to .08, whereas the recommended dose is .06. Sounds simple enough, but I did this once and almost killed my yellow tang. He slowly faded, didn't eat for a week. I've read that copper can cause internal organ damage in some cases. I look at it like chemotherapy for fish!

I'd done hypo successfully several times, and it's not toxic to fish. (Although if fish are in hypo too long, they can develop problems).

The biggest problem with hypo is the length of treatment - some are doing 6 weeks or more. As stated, I've gone a month, and for whatever reason, am not having success. So, I decided to go with copper. 14 days, and we'll see where we stand.
 
i believe the fw dips or baths can bring immediate relief for fish that have heavy gill infestation. in what way i'm not exactly sure,,but i have seen it 3x with my angel. he was twitching and shaking, gave fw bath each time and fish's symptoms were gone.

would they have been gone in that time left untreated? wouldn't know,,but 3 for 3 was enough for me to think it did something.
DISCLAIMER: i am not stating that FW baths are a cure for ich.

i think due to the possible length of hypo treatment it is a 1 shot deal for most. hypo for 6 weeks after last spot is noticed. well 4 weeks into it a spot shows up now your into it for over 10 weeks going on possibly 3 months hypo conditions with the fish.
dealing with the unlikely possibility of low-salinity strain,your efforts are futile.

i was under the impression cupramine dosage was recommended at 0.5 mg/L??
"DIRECTIONS: Use 1 mL (top mark of enclosed dispenser) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat for a total dose of 0.5 mg/L (in freshwater, use half dose). Leave at this concentration for 14 days. Although most fish tolerate Cupramineâ„¢ to 0.8 mg/L, it is not advisable to exceed 0.6 mg/L copper."

although,,i would strive to maintain at 0.6,,just not sure how the heck you could ever be sure with the test kit....
 
Here's the issue with Cupramine -- the Seachem test kit is a little dicey and the only other test kit that Seachem says works with Cupramine is the Red Sea one, which only has a scale up to .4. I just made sure the test was "darker" than .4 for the test period.

Copper is toxic, but so is ich, and i watched Cupramine bring a gasping fish back from certain death. To me it seems much easier to manage than hypo, clearly more certain in producing an outcome, and if you're careful about testing and measuring, Cupramine at least provides some safety margin.

I wouldn't treat with copper casually, but if you have a confirmed case and you have your fish in QT, and you're willing to test a lot, I think it's the way to go.

And for all of you in "wait-and-see" mode, please treat your fish with copper or hypo today!

mark
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6377709#post6377709 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by markrovner
Here's the issue with Cupramine -- the Seachem test kit is a little dicey and the only other test kit that Seachem says works with Cupramine is the Red Sea one, which only has a scale up to .4. I just made sure the test was "darker" than .4 for the test period.

ummm,,something just doesn't seem right there..
1st - could you provide further details regarding the 'dicey' seachem kit. i think there was a bad batch put out this year,anything besides that?
2nd - how the heck can a treatment level be maintained accurately if the kit used doesn't reflect a reading at the recommended dosage?

is the copper manufaturer stating it is an option to use the red sea test kit and maintain at .4?
red sea's copper brand is called ParaCure. if this is the same thing as Cupramine then why would each manufacturer recommend different dosage levels be maintained.
.3 vs .5?
i'm confused.
 
not to get off topic here but I had my fish in my tank and they got ich. I took them to my buddys lfs and he's holding them for me. Now I have zero fish in my display, only has the sand and liverock. I'm going to let it run for 6 weeks w/o fish. But I have to get my fish from the lfs, and I know he runs some copper in his fish tanks but I don't know how much. I'm going to get these fish and put them in the 55 gallon QT tank. What should I do as far as treating the fish goes ? They look alright in his tanks but I would'nt go far to say they are ich free.....I would not think they would be and I will put them in the QT tank this time. Just wondering what the best way would be to approach this?
 
Trigger,

I know, i'm confused too!

Seachem had a bad batch of test juice, as you say, and in the best of circumstances, the color gradation is not super-easy to read. I don't know the difference between Red Sea copper and Cupramine -- and I too was confused by the fact that the RS kit only went to .4. But the color gradations on the RS kit are very clear, and I used both similtaneously to get in the neighborhood of .5. Very inexact, but in my case it seems to have worked.

I am so spolied by the refractometer and the pinpoint pH -- i wish at least there was a usable titration-based copper kit.

m
 
no the color chart with the varying shades of blue is difficult..i just aimed at keeping it as close as possible and if anything a tad darker as you did with the red sea.
 
Well folks, we're one step closer to the start of copper. Tonight my wife and I did an ultra fast switcheroo on the fishie. I filled a 5g bucket with water from the QT, removed the rock/fake plants, and netted the coral beauty and put her in the bucket.

I then drained the remaining 15g into a large containter, dumped all the crushed coral out of the tank, rinsed it, put the 15g back in. Reattach heater & filter, then add fishie. Bottom line - in about 15 minutes time the CC and rocks are gone, and I don't think the fish knew what hit him.

I have the SG up to about 1.015, and will probably add Cupramine on Monday night. With a little good fortune, I hope this fish is clean in a couple weeks.
 
Did I see another Hippo Tang with Ich on this page? We should change the name to "Icho Tang". I tried so many things last year when I went thru this that I can make some observations that that are very solid.

As to Ich's resistance to hyposalinity, I stated about a month or six ago that I felt that I had a strain that got used to low salinity and could not be killed by it. We joked a little calling it the guyguerra irritant strain, but I believe as this thread goes on there will be enough cases to prove that hypo is not a guaranteed treatment for Ich, and I believe it will continue to be less effective as strains build immunity to it.

As to Cupramine, I had several conversations with the guy's at Seachem, both by phone and emails. They are a great group of people and an excellent company. Anyone thats used the color scale will agree that it's hard to read, but they also send a sample bottle to help you get started. The effective range for dosage is broad. Anything between .2 and .8 is therapeutic. They recommend .5. If you use the sample water sparingly, you should have enough to do side by side comparisons for about 5 tests. If you run out of sample water, buy another kit. The price compared to the effect is cheap.

As to test kits, I started my first Cupramine treatment with an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit because thats what the LFS sold me when they sold me the cupramine. I had the levels set at .5 but didn't see any effect. Then I got a Red Sea kit and said WHOA, this chart doesn't even go high enough. So I drove 40 miles to the next LFS and got a Seachem kit. I compared all three, every day, until my wife was convinced to baker act me. What I concluded is that you should only use Seachem test kit with Cupramine, nothing else.

As to toxicity. I'm not a biologist, but I have a copperband that went thru treatment, and is now a year and a half "into recovery" and looks forward to eating out of my hand every day. My Foxface, Threadfin butterfly and two clowns also think highly of cupramine. I try not to think of the losses I had during the duration of failed hypo treatments and incorrect copper levels due to using the wrong test kits. I lost about 8 fish during that time. Now I go directly to using Cupramine in my QT if I see Ich, and they aren't stressed by me botching things up or taking too long in treatment.

As to Cupramine's effect on a tank. I've heard so many people tell me that once you use copper in a tank you an never use it for a reef. This is a myth. I treated my first fish in my 120 gallon display because my LFS didn't tell me I should start with a QT. I later sold the tank to my brother because he was going to do a FOWLR. He ended up building a beautiful reef in it. It looks great, and all his corals, anemones, inverts and fish are doing great.

I've also seen the articles saying to keep a spare tank empty, and keep a sponge in your display for bio, then magically put it together when you need a QT, a wala, you can throw your fish in it. Thats nonsense. I keep a 50 gallon tank year round so that when I need it, I can count on it. When I buy a fish, thats where he lives until he gets his health approval from me. The first spot of Ich, I dose with Cupramine. In about 4 weeks he's probably going to be ready to go into the big tank. If he dies, he was probably going to anyway.

There are a lot of myths about treating Ich, but it doesn't need to be that hard. What I outlined above is fairly simple. You can get by with a nano tank for a QT if you like. Put your garlic on your pizza and drink your hypo water, put copper in to treat Ich, and everyone wins.
 
Well said Guy!

I read somewhere here on RC that hippo tangs are more susceptible to ich because the makeup of their "skin" makes it easier for the parasite to attach. Interesting.

I also agree with the point that you can in fact use a tank for a reef even if it had Cupramine in it. I asked Seachem about that, they stated that neither the glass nor the silicone seals would absorb copper, and therefore it wouldn't leach from there later on.

My coral beauty is happy and eating this morning, despite the "Extreme Makeover" we did last night.
 
bottom line..in severe cases it needs to be treated. only 2 treatment options have been documented to be effective.
it's possible both have long term consequences that may be uncovered or not,,depending on lifespan of specimen.

copper seems to be more of a one time deal.. monitored properly for the recommended duration and it should eradicate the parasite. but,it's a toxin. no arguing that?

the idea of using cycled media is a help for startup..that's all. it will not fully cycle a 55 qt loaded with 15 fish.

the issue with using a copper treated tank for a reef later is not the fact that the copper is embedded in the glass,,but the fact that it will slowly leach out of the sand and decor/rock.
hence,,if you've removed all that and cleaned the tank..there should be no problem. my current tank was treated lightly with coppersafe for over a year..

i do not believe you should have to purchase another $10 copper test kit after only 5 uses just to purchased the sample test titration. that would only last the first 2.5 days.
the manufacturer, knowing their test kit blows,,should provide a larger sample that could be used daily for the entire treatment.
 


i do not believe you should have to purchase another $10 copper test kit after only 5 uses just to purchased the sample test titration. that would only last the first 2.5 days.
the manufacturer, knowing their test kit blows,,should provide a larger sample that could be used daily for the entire treatment.
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With due respect for Seachem (whom i like for the most part), I'm with Trigger here. Surely they could come up with a titration kit, or, like Red Sea, a color kit with more dramatic gradations...

mark
 
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