"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

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Ich Update:

After another month the parasite population does not seem to have decreased at all, i thought it may have been but not likely.
what seems to be happenning is the parasite is manifesting itself within different parts of the fish.. more on the outer fin,gill and eye areas.
this has proven to not be good.

Current Conditions
1. ich appears to be infesting gill and eye areas mostly causing fish to scratch against rock. this will enable secondary infections to take place. small white patches are evident on angel and trigger on both sides of gills. gills have become torn.

2. not sure if related,,the bangaii seems to have lost an eye. it did have a small cloudy area for awhile. until one day i noticed a large bulge, the fish was reclusive and not eating. that seems to have cleared up with apparent eye damage. the fish is back in the open and feeding.

3. couple other fish have shown small cloudy areas as well..but have since cleared.

4. although still no deaths, are still feeding well and active, they are apparently not in the best of condition.


Action Plan:
>since just about all my sps has rtn'd over the past 5 months, i will remove my remaining corals/inverts and hypo the main tank.
breaking down the tank again and removing all the fish (23) just is not something i want to try right now. i'll still have some zoos and shrooms attached to rocks that i cannot remove..but i will be able to get most everything else out.
i'm going to give the hypo a full effort. 6 weeks after last spot is noticed..this will not be easy,,as all it may take is one small spot that goes unnoticed in the gills.

i'm not going to fret over what's ahead of me here, it was my stupidity. if the hypo does not work,i will do the entire tank breakdown. dwelling too much on doing this again may make me just give up the hobby as i have been slightly losing interest anyway, partly due to so much coral loss over the past 4 months and the time involved with this hobby. and my damn electric bill has been brutal.:rolleyes:

i'm tired of dicking around here..i gotta do what has to be done. it's a major infestation, no loss of life to date is a miracle so far..i'm done taking chances.
i hope this can be the 1st documented success story with hypo treatment within this thread.
wish me luck as i'm really going to need it this time.
i will update as i progress through the treatment..this will be a good documented test i believe.
good luck to all remaining and thanks for taking part.
 
one other thought -- any possibility you're dealing with oodinium? Maybe you have both. The scratching makes me suspicious.

Not sure whether hypo works on oodinium or not. When i was keeping SW fish in the 70s, oodinium (or i guess now it's amyloodinium) was the absolute bane of the hobby.
 
Yes, Hippos get ich really, really easily. I am afraid they are about the most mistreated fish in the hobby next to Mandarins because of that combines with their size. Inland Aquatics (who I thought were experts) actually told me that it was impossible to have a Hippo without ich... so, just to ignore a few spots! As you know, my two have not had ich at all since using the strict quarantine. Both of them eat out of my hand too, like guy's Copperband!

Just putting in my 2 cents that if you QT EVERYTHING, all can be ich free!

I will probably try Cupramine if I ever have to do a treatment again (hopefully that would only be on a NEW fish if it was infected... already in QT:-)!!!
 
Triggerfish, I felt the same way you did about giving up the hobby, but I can say that in my case, once I got rid of ich, and set up a proper QT, I'm back to enjoying the hobby immensely. I hope you get there.

As to the Seachem kit and their sample water, you don't need to use the sample every time. I don't need to use it at all anymore since I'm used to it now. It's very easy to see if youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re over .8, and if youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re under .2. It's just a good way to get used to reading the scale. I just bought a new fish today, and he's in the QT. If I see ich, he gets dosed with cupramine, and I wont need the sample water to know that I have the dosage right. If in 6 weeks he looks perfect, he gets to go to heaven (what I call my 230 gallon tank). It's a laid back program once you have it set up. I wish you the best of luck, and encourage you to stay with it until you can enjoy your tank with out Ich. That will probably light the old spark that got you started in the beginning.

By the way, is anybody elseââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s spellchecker not working? Mine stopped a few days ago, so I have to copy it into word, check it and paste it back.

Dave, off topic, but the cheato is great, I also added several other macro's and use them to feed the Tang and Foxface. I'll always be thankful to you.
 
Trigger dont give up
hypo will work, it did for us. the fallow tank is a key part.
I can remember back when the thread started you and I struggled with not putting new things in the fallow tank and there by bringing in ich without knowing.

It was a hard urge to fight, but I think the fallow main for the long period was really key to our success. We only had 4 fish left and two of them died to katrina. Our Nasso who by all rites was stressed to the max and the most ich prone stayed free of ich. the little blue damsel also survived ich and the storm and is off to a new home in Dallas now.

It has been a long time since we fought this menace together, you inspired me to do the right thing. Hang in there man it can and does work.
 
thanks all...i'm in the process of making the filtered water now to begin the salinity decrease. damn with the combination of cold weather and crappy well pressure it takes so damn long to filter out 25g..like 3 days..

i really think doing hypo in main tank is best for the fish at this point. hopefully it will be enough for full eradication.
the quest continues..full speed ahead...
 
Guy,

"... but I believe as this thread goes on there will be enough cases to prove that hypo is not a guaranteed treatment for Ich, and I believe it will continue to be less effective as strains build immunity to it."

I think I have such a strain. I lowered the sg in one of my qt to 1.010-1.012 and the white ich spots are still showing on the fish after several days. I will lower salinity to 1.009-1.010, but i feel this won't succeed. (maybe the cyrpt has already adapted to the low salinity!) I want to be more proactive and medicate with copper, but i've heard that it's dangerous to mix hypo with copper because of the low ph in hypo conditions. when you medicated with cupramine did you first bring up the salinity? or would you think it's ok to add the copper in low salinity conditions? i pose this question to you since you've been in this situation. thanks.
 
baobao, hyposalinity treatment for ich requires being at 1.009. Anything higher is no more helpful than being at 1.025. If you have your system at 1.009 for 3-4 weeks and still have a problem, then you may have a resistant strain.

In any case, hypo doesn't kill ich when it's attached to the fish, so nothing you do will make the spots that are already present to disappear. That will happen when the parasite is ready to detach. Even if you did nothing, the spots will eventually detach. Using hypo will (hopefully) kill the parasite and prevent more from reattaching, however.

Personally, I raised the SG gradually over 5 days, from 1.009 to 1.018, and then started adding Cupramine.
 
Here's a post I did to Seachem last year talking about the combined use of Hyposalinity and Cupramine. It's lengthy, but hopefully answers your question.

Cupramine and hyposalinity at the same time:

First let me start by saying you guy's and the support you give your customers is top notch. Secondly, let me say, as a fairly analytical person, I have never been so confused about a subject as I am the treatment and COMPLETE eradication of Cryptocaryon in a closed environment.
You will hopefully remember me and my posts to your site called "Cupramine Success". My last publish on that thread was that after 6 weeks of treatment I thought I had it won. Two days after pulling out the Cupramine the Ich spots appeared again. Now I am 1 week into hyposalinity at 11ppt. I need the best facts that you can give me now, so that I can make sure I get rid of this parasite. I also know I'm one of MANY dealing with this. Here are my questions, along with things I've been told (some are probably old wives tales).

1: Is it safe to use Cupramine with hyposalinity at 11ppt? I've been told to do one or the other, not both (not by Seachem, Seachem said it was fine). Why? Will it stress the fish too much? The reason I want to do both is because I understand there is a strain of Cryptocaryon that can survive in 5ppt. If so, I will not rid my tank of this with hypo only. If it's ok, does the dosage change?

2: I removed the 120 lbs of LR that were in this tank now, but still have 1 1/2" of sand in the tank. Will this reduce the ability of Cupramine to work? In my first try with Cupramine, I had test kit problems, but it is still hard to believe that all that LR and sand didn't play a part in the medication not working.

3: If the two treatments are combined, how long should the treatment be? I want to be sure it's completely effective, yet reduce the stress on the fish as much as possible.

4: Is it Seachems belief that a tank can never be completely rid of the parasite? I have heard you say that, but I can not understand why.

5: I don't believe Metro kills Ich, I thought it was only for secondary skin lesions and infections. That's fine, but why say it's part of the cure for Ich?

6: What is the surest way to QT that will make sure Ich isn't transferred into a clean display. Should Cupramine be used in all QT's even without visible signs. We all know that fish can carry the parasite and we wont see it because it's in the gills and they might have a partial immunity to it.

I beg you to answer and thouroughly explain the answers to each question above. I am a life long Seachem customer, and need your expertise.

It would do wonders for all of us if you were to definitively publish the best way to eradicate Ich from a tank and keep it as a permanent thread under your companies listing here.

Thank you very much, Guy

Thier response:

Guy,

Thanks for the kind words regarding our customer support and congratulations on your 230g. We try to do all we can to assist. Regarding your questions;

1) It can be safe to use Cupramine during a hyposalinity treatment. Keep in mind that some fish may be sensitive to hyposalinity treatments and some fish may be sensitive to copper based remedies. It is also acceptable to keep a lower concentration of Cupramine in solution (lower than .5) depending on the sensitivity of the fish during this time. In your situation, I would consider using Cupramine with hyposalinity (see explanation below) as this can be a very effective treatment.

2) Cupramine is stable in solution (due to the amine complex) although it is possible that it could precipitate onto carbonate containing materials (calcium carbonate for example) like live rock and aragonite sand. This depends on how coated this material (carbonate) is with organic material and bio films. For example, if this material has been in your system for a few months or longer, it is likely sufficiently covered with enough organic material and biofilms that there are no exposed attractive sites and Cupramine will not adhere to it. On the other hand, if this material was newly introduced to your system and not completely coated, Cupramine may adhere to it but is generally displaced over time by the organic material and biofilms.

3) I would recommend a minimum of 2 weeks, preferably up to 3 or 4 weeks. Keep in mind that some fish may be sensitive to these treatments so I recommend closely monitoring your fish during this time. Copper is more toxic in FW due to the relative lack of ions in ionic competition. Dilute SW will still have enough ions in competition to reduce toxicity relative to the rate of dilution. For example, if you diluted your marine aquarium by 20% with FW, then you could reduce the Cupramine dosage by 20% to further ensure less stressful conditions for your fish during treatment.

4) In theory, it is possible but not likely. For example, you may dip fish or use copper based remedies to combat parasites but internally nothing was remedied. Keep in mind that sometimes internal parasites are trivial at best as many organisms (humans included) live day to day with internal parasites with no adverse affects.

5) Metronidazole is a documented protozoacide and will kill "ick" and other parasites. Please refer to Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals Used in the Treatment of Fish Diseases by Nelson Herwig as this is a helpful book listing many commonly used aquarium drugs and their functions.

6) I personally like to use ParaGuard daily during quarantine as this is effective and even generally safe for fish that may show sensitivity to copper based remedies. However, if you are able to diagnose "ick" then I would consider Cupramine a first choice. Hyposalinity treatments can be used with either Curpamine or ParaGuard as well. Likewise, if you are able to diagnose other infections (bacterial for example), I would treat accordingly. I also recommend sterilizing equipment (nets, etc.) between use or even keep a separate set of equipment for your QT.


__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
thanks for the info on that product guy.

Update: Reaching Hyposalinity conditions

wow,,it's gonna take some time to bring 125g from 1.024 to 1.008
so far i've changed 20g over 2 days and it's down to 1.020.
i'm going to have to use some regular water as it's taking forever to filter water this time of year.
i've got the 10g all ready to go for the corals when i remove them.

the ich appears to have gotten worse..possibly 2 reasons.
1. haven't been feeding as much garlic-still not sure if this was a deterrent.
2. fish is stressing a bit more due to possible secondary issues resulting in parasite able to take stronger hold.

i'm just going to syphon out a large quantity daily and replace directing with fresh tap while mixing up buffer to maintain ph.
i got to get the sg down quicker.

Hypo Summary
1/1 - 1.024
1/2 - 1.023 ich has increased in visibility on angel
1/3 - 1.020
 
I'm sorry you are having to go through this Triggerfish - I know it is hard! Hang in there and best of luck!
 
GuyGuerra,

Thanks for sharing Seachem's response. I have some fish that have ich and am treating (for first time) with Quinine Sulfate and hypo. If I were not already treating with QS, I would consider combining hypo with copper, but my understanding is that hypo PH must be carefully monitored(just add some buffer?), because these hypo immune strains of ICH seem more common than people think!
 
I chose not to combine the two, but my fish had been in low salinity for a long period already, so I was afraid to cause injury to the fish by continued low salinity. I have found that copper alone is really all you need, and makes the process easier. I don't want to sound like Cupramine is the only type of copper either, it's just the one I have experiance with.

Triggerfish, you might want to check on the rate of salinity reduction thats safe. If my weak memory is working, I recall that the drop is not critical and can be done quickly, it's the increase that needs to be cautious at around .01 per day.
 
yeah,,the drop can be done much quicker..i was using filtered water and changing as it was accumulated.

changed more last night after 2nd job another 15g down to 1.017.
was so tired from working the 2 jobs that even simple things are becoming issues as the sump almost overflowed due to putting too much water back in tank.
 
Last edited:
I wish I lived closer, I'd give you a hand! Two jobs and a SW aquarium is a full plate. It will get easier when your display is clean and you put your new fish go in the QT first. I know I sound like a broken record, but you could be done with ich in about two weeks if you dose your fish with copper instead of putting in all the time of hypo. Maybe there are mitigating factors I'm not aware of.

I have a cleaner wrasse in my QT right now. I know a lot of peolpe say to leave these in the sea, and I generally agree. The LFS had 5 of them in stock, and I figured most were going to die anyway, so I thought, if anyone has a chance to keep on alive, it might be me. My display is large enough and with enough fish that he might be O.K. there. So, my goal was to teach him how to eat regular food. (this is off topic, but part of the reasoning behing QT's, other than ich control). I have him in there by himself, so he can't look to other fish to eat off of, and the fish won't gobble up the food before he can figure out what it is. Then I started with every kind of food I could to see what he will eat. Since he's the only fish in there, it's just me and him, no distractions. I have found several foods that he will eat, and found the correct size of the food that catches his interest. So right now, he is eating just about the same as any of my other fish. He likes bloodworms, frozen brine if its broken into small peices, and prime reef flake if it's in small peices. I am very optomistic that his guy will make it. Once he goes into the 230, I'm confident he'll do well.

It is surprising to me how much more a large tank helps the reef population. I even have a tree sponge that is growing. Everyone I've ever talked to says they are garenteed to die in a static tank. They are wrong, and I've got pictures to prove it. I've had my tree sponge for a year, and he has grown about 2 inches taller and started a new branch. My Bulb anemone split today, which has me excited also. My stripped mandarin is eating and growing also. (he's the only fish that I didn't QT because of the special diet required.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6430200#post6430200 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guyguerra
you could be done with ich in about two weeks if you dose your fish with copper instead of putting in all the time of hypo. Maybe there are mitigating factors I'm not aware of.
Click to expand...

the tank breakdown would be the last ditch effort
the thought of housing 24 fish in a bb sterile environment for at least 6 weeks is the mitigating factor as to why i am giving hypo a chance now.

btw. thx for the offer as i know you would help out.
 
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