"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6228679#post6228679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guitarfish
I believe it's when the cysts rupture and all the little invaders come out by the hundreds that hypo does its lethal work.

from the link below., it oulines that hypo does not target the "free swimmers" it works by interrupting the life cycle at the tomont stage. Tomonts are destroyed by hyposaline conditions, thus preventing re-infection. So in other words, the tomites are inhibited from reproducing within the cyst.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6228710#post6228710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kimoyo

All the ich fall of the fish in 3-7 days. And the hypo/copper kills the ich when the cysts rupture before they can infect the fish again. So shouldn't we be able to take the fish out of quarantine after 8 days? Am I missing something?

you still would want to make sure the fish was clean,,so you could probably realistically take the fish out within that time period if no spots are visible and place in another qtank for further observation.

you must ensure not 1 drop of water gets transferred from the treated qtank to the new one.
i am beginning to think that a dual transfer/hypo method may be the most effective option.

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6228922#post6228922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guitarfish
One, we don't know if all the ich in the tank is on the same schedule, so to speak. In other words, while you may see spots on day 8, for example, and they fall off 6 days later, there could be ich at other stages in the tank that aren't visible yet.

there shouldn't be any ich in a newly setup qtank,,the ich will be transferred in on the infected fish.
regardless of when the parasite infected the fish, based on the trophont stage,,it should release from fish within 3-7 days.
at that point you remove the fish into another clean tank.

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6230978#post6230978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guitarfish
The time on the fish (trophont stage) is 3-7 days.

yup,,saw that..

what you have to consider here is that the parasite is microscopic,and as it feeds the telltale whites spots become increasingly easier to observe with the naked eye....
At what point are the spots visible? that is the question as mature trophonts usually exit the fish within a narrow time frame.

 

[jimmyj7090]

With my comment I was saying that the reccomended treatment times are along the lines of 2 wks for copper and 6 wks for hypo. I think the copper kills the parisite in different life cycle stages whereas the hypo only acts on only one life stage.

As for shorter treatment times, you must keep in mind that if you are removing the fish from the display and treating seperately you will need to wait 6-8 wks before returning the fish or they will likely get sick again as the paraiste won't be eradicated in the display. In other words, if you succesfully treat the fish in QT, with copper for 2-3 weeks the Ick will still be in the display and the fish will get sick again.

 

[guitarfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6234357#post6234357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jimmyj7090
keep in mind that if you are removing the fish from the display and treating seperately you will need to wait 6-8 wks before returning the fish or they will likely get sick again as the paraiste won't be eradicated in the display.

I've always found 30 days fallow in the display to be sufficient.

Any free swimming theronts are going to die within 48hrs because they won't find a fish to attach to. There aren't any trophonts because they are attached to fish, and there's no fish. That leaves tomonts, which are encysted. 30 days is plenty of time for them to excyst, swim around, then die.

Of course, as they say, "your mileage may vary". :mixed:

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6234357#post6234357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jimmyj7090
With my comment I was saying that the reccomended treatment times are along the lines of 2 wks for copper and 6 wks for hypo. I think the copper kills the parisite in different life cycle stages whereas the hypo only acts on only one life stage.

got ya.. pretty sure copper was mentioned to kill parasites within the free swimming stage(s).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6234357#post6234357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jimmyj7090


As for shorter treatment times, you must keep in mind that if you are removing the fish from the display and treating seperately you will need to wait 6-8 wks before returning the fish or they will likely get sick again as the paraiste won't be eradicated in the display.

yes,,good point there....

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6235541#post6235541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guitarfish
I've always found 30 days fallow in the display to be sufficient.

how many actual times have you had to leave main tank fallow for 30 days? just curious...

it looks like at normal tropical temps the end dates of the lifecycle should be completed within 31 days.
time frame from when parasite leaves host:
8 hours - Protomont
12 hours - Tomont encyst
28 days - Tomonts excyst releasing Tomites
2 days - Theronts search for host

Apparently the time frame of life cycle can vary between different isolates or variants of C.irritans. Also, it was mentioned there can be variances based on a strategy for survival.

I know it has been mentioned that it would be best to leave fallow for 6-8 weeks,,but just not sure what that recommendation would be based on? especially if temp in fallow tank is raised up a bit to speed hatching time...

 

[guitarfish]

I've done it on three occasions, twice on one tank, once on another. Certainly not a large amount.

28 days is certainly at the high end of the range. In my tanks in the past I have observed the cycle to follow a 21-23 day schedule.

One person who's expertise I greatly value is Beth over at the saltwaterfish.com boards. She has more hands on experience and knowledge with hyposalinity than anyone else I've come across. She states a minimum of 3 weeks of hypo once all spots are gone, and 4 weeks for the fallow display. I've followed her guidelines in the past and they've always worked.

 

[jimmyj7090]

I said 6-8 wks, but I'm not disagreeing with the shorter times.

From what I've read 8 weeks is about the max that I've seen reccomended, I figure if your removing the fish to QT and acclimating them to that, It can't hurt to keep them there for an extra week or two. In my case it was a chance to power feed them before the transitions.

IMO for all the trouble involved, why not give it the extra time as added insurance. I certaintly cannot say it's necessary, but it can't hurt (hypo generally isn't stressful for most fish, only the transition periods).

FWIW, so far so good on my treatment which is covered on this thread.

Good luck whatever you do.

jk

 

[jimmyj7090]

Adding another thought...........

My understanding is that there numerous different strains of ICK and there is likely some variability in one, some, or all of the lifecycle stages.

Based on that assumption, I figure it's safer to go a little extra with both the treatment and the fallow times, but again, I can't offer any evidence that it's necessary.

jk

 

[pmui]

Hello all,

I've read through several pages of this thread and can't find an answer.
My 55gal. display tank with fish and LR. Currently a Angel w/ ich (the fish died) contaminated the tank.

I'm in the process of starting a new (from scratch) 120gal.

I'm wondering if I move all my LR to the new tank, and don't put any fish in the 120gal for 6+ weeks, will ich cycle be broken in that time span? I will increase the tank temp to 82.

As for the infected fish, i will do hypo & copper in a QT.

any comments would be appreciated.

Peter

 

[guitarfish]

Yes, 6 weeks is sufficient for the cycle to be broken in an empty tank IME, and I wouldn't worry about the temperature. You can do hypo or copper, but not both at once. Hope this helps.

 

[guyguerra]

I'm sure you know this already but don't let the copper treated water into the tank with your LR. Guitarfish is right, 6 weeks should do it. I wouldn't do hypo in the new tank (if you were thinking of it) as you want the things living on the LR to flourish. Sounds like your on the right track.

 

[pmui]

thanks you

 

[bheron]

Triggerfish - this is a great thread! Thank you so much as this has greatly helped me. I just noticed my Hipo Tang has come down with Ich in the past week. I was clueless how he got it but have since decided it came in on some un-QT'd Live Rock.

Anyway, your experience has enabled me to conclude I will NOT QT right now, but instead will see if he can "weather it out". He doesnt show any signs of distress and is not itching at all. My other three fish do not show signs.

If it continues, after the holidays I will remove the fish and QT all of them following your process.


Also, I have to ask this b/c I've always wondered:

Q: If Hyposalinity is a good way to go, why not Hypo the whole tank? I know you cant use copper on a reef tank. But, instead of removing the fish to a QT and then doing Hypo, why not keep them in there and do the hypo there?

Now, I can think of two good reasons, but I'm not sure:

1) inverts (cleaner crew, shrimp, etc) cannot handle the hypo process

2) the ich reproduces in the sand bed?

Anyway, just thought I'd ask it.

 

[guitarfish]

The low salinity of hypo levels will kill most inverts and life on the rock. Bummer huh.

 

[plaz]

You will also have water quality issues as the live rock, corals, etc. die off. It would be nice - but I can't think of anything except the corals that will survive (maybe a few of the bugs... but not much). It would kill the ich, and most everything else.

 

[Triggerfish]

Bryon - welcome to the battle... you could hypo the tank if you removed the inverts and corals. the LR will still contain the nitrofying bacteria but that's about it.

if you have a high fish load and low coral/invert load that's what i would probably do.
just a few fish, i would get them out and fallow the tank for 6 week min.
good luck.

 

[jimmyj7090]

Hi and happy holidays to all

Just to update on my "quest".

My fish have been back in the display for over 30 days (plus about 10 days at NSW SG in the QT) and all is well. Not a single spot that I've seen and no losses. Fish all look great, eating like pigs and very active. T.percs look like they may be getting ready to lay some eggs.

(If anyone is reading this, and didn't go through the whole thread, I treated with hypo for 7 weeks after seeing the start of an infection from a new fish).

In another month or two I'll go so far as to say that the treatment really did work 100%.

jk