Ich in 20 Gallan FOWLR

[GilroyC]

Morning All,

I'm desperate and need some true and real advice on how to proceed to treat my fish for ich.

I have a pair of OC Clownfish and 1 Yellow Angelfish...The angelfish is just 4 days old and I suspect has brought in the ich as prior to this my clowns were fine.

This morning I confirmed ich as there were a 6-10 white spots on the Yellow Angel and 2 - 3 spots on my clownfish...I have a QT setup just yesterday, however, am not sure how to proceed and what to treat with.

TTM & Hyposalanity isn't an option, as am not at home for around 15 hrs a day(work & family).....I have read about the copper treatment, however, am not sure which med to use and how/

Also, am ready to invest whatever time I have to ensure the well being of my fish & tank, hence, the following questions:

1. What's the best copper med to use which won't make my fish commit suicide?
2. Can copper meds and a broadband antibiotic be used in conjunction to treat and eliminate all parasite when treating in QT.
3. How long to keep fish in QT(including observation time).
4. While running the DT as hallow, can a broadband antibiotic be dosed to eliminate all other or possible parasites/unwanted bacterial/fungal parasites etc.
5. How long to keep the DT Hallow.
6. After doing all this(QT'ing & running DT Hallow), would there be any scope for any infectious parasite to return.

Please respond urgently, as am not willing to loose any of my fish...

 

[Dmorty217]

Skip copper, only use it when all other options have been exhausted. Get yourself some Chloroquine Phosphate, Either with a Rx from your local vet or new life spectrum ich shield powder. Get a digital scale to measure the CP, don't use the scooper provided.

 

[ThRoewer]

TTM and hyposalinity should work fine even if you are gone for most of the day. The tank transfer intervals can be reduced to every 2 days which makes it impossible to get over the 72h limit even if you come home later one day.

As for hyposalinity, the salinity change in a covered tank should be low enough so that one check and adjustment per day is well sufficient. I've done it this way plenty of times and never had any issues. IMO it's the easiest and least work intensive of all options.

CP should work for ich in most cases, but there is no guarantee. The biggest issue is that there is no hobbyists test kit available to test the CP levels - you have to dose it correctly and hope it isn't broken down by bacteria.

Copper is the one thing I would not touch. Not only is it harsh on the fish, but you would have to test and adjust copper levels at least twice a day which involves much more work than checking the salinity in a hyposalinity tank with a refractometer and maybe add a scoop of RO water.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[GilroyC]

Morning All,

Update: All fish had been transferred to the QT last evening and let them be there for around 12 hrs....Checked for Ammonium(as the QT isn't seeded) with test results confirming <.05

This morning administed the 1st dose of Cupramine prior to leaving for work....Hope all goes well and when I get back the fish are still active and fine.

Haven't checked levels of Copper, however, will do so this evening and will try and bring in to Therapeutic levels when I administer the 2nd dose on Friday Morning.

I understand the tank being new and the fish undergoing a bit of stress, so the eating is low...however, hope that it improves slowly.

Will keep updated...After running the 3 Week course(will only add carbon to the filter on the 22nd day from today), will keep them in QT until the following 6 weeks, allowing the tank to run fallow for the recommended 75 days.

Will keep posted.

 

[GilroyC]

Hi...just gothome from work and the fish are all alive, however, I have the following problems:

Ammonium in QT: <0.05 - Good
Copper - 10 hrs after dosing 40 drops of Cupramine in a 20 G QT Tank - 0.6

Water is cloudy, however, am not planning on any water change if ammonium is under control.

The Yellow Angel is doing fine, no heavy breathing, and swimming with ease.
The Clownfish are stressed, not swimming normally and are breathing heavy.

None of the fish are currently eating, which I understand, however, am feeding a few pellets of Marine S every hour in the hope of having them nibble at a few.

Questions: What do I do w.r.t the copper levels. I did not think I overdosed, considering the size of the QT, however, I have a reading which should have come up 2 days later.

And what about the cloudy water. Will it clear on it's own? The good thing, is that I have water change ready, if I find my fish really struggling in the next 24 hours.

Do you agree, that I should not dose any more cupramine, considering that the levels are already elevated and hope that the fish pull through the 2 week medication period...currently, no white spots visible on the fish...if it remains the same until day 14(minimum treatment time), will add carbon and remove the copper while letting the fish remain in QT for the next 8 weeks as observation time.

Please advise ASAP.

 

[Dmorty217]

Whatever you do, DO NOT use any conditioners with Cupramine!! You will make it much more toxic to the fish

 

[GilroyC]

Am not using any conditioners...I called my LFS and told him of the situation...advice to do a partial WC, which I just completed...wI'll teat Ammonium and Copper in an hour an update.

 

[scooter31707]

Well it was suggested not to use Cooper, especially in a uncycled QT where ammonia will become a problem. You have 3 fish go by you 2 5gallon buckets from Home Depot or Lowes. Go by you 2 50 watt heaters, 4 airstones, some air tubing, and a air pump recommended for a 10 gallon. All of that should be under $60. This is all you need for the TTM which is the best method for treating Ich.

 

[cheucklate]

I assume your QT is not cycled. You will have to do large water changes to keep ammonia in check. Cupramine can be pre dosed in saltwater bucket when doing water changes to keep the copper level constant. I hope you have a test kit.

Also if your bio filtration has live rock, remember the rock can periodically absorb and leach out the copper throwing your concentration level out of whack.

And of course display tank has to be fishless for 2+ months to starve out remaining ich.

 

[Mishri]

Cloudy water, what kind of filtration do you have on that tank? I would suspect filtration or lack of it would be causing the problem. I prefer using aquaclear HOB filters for my QT tanks. (just don't put the carbon in it).. and I get them oversized.. like one rated for 75 gallon that is going on a 20g tank.

to answer your questions

1. cupramine (still not recommended treatment though)
2. I wouldn't use anything with copper unless I felt I had to, in one case I had fungal or bacterial infection on one of my fish, and then I did treat with an anti-fungal/bacterial that was all natural.
3. They should be free of parasites within 2 weeks and likely within 5 days. Observation depends on who you ask, 60-90 days imo.
4. Not really a point in doing that, by the time the fallow period is up anything that could infect your fish will have died.
5. 75-90 days. (Although you might be safe at 60days, 90 is the "guaranteed" safe point)
6. Only if you didn't maintain a consistently high enough cupramine level to kill off all of the ich. I've had trouble maintaining levels and it reoccurred when I thought it was knocked out.

 

[GilroyC]

Thank you all for the response.

To be honest, I wasn't very confident with trying the TTM or Hyposalanity, hence, I went with the Copper Treatment. At the same time was looking at one kind of medication procedure which could help with a number of fish related diseases.

Yes, I have just 3 fish which are in a Jewel Tank 20 Gallon QT(not cycled - Water used was mixture of fresh Salt Water & Water from DT) with nothing apart for the regular filter(carbon removed) and the return pump which is used to create surface agitation to increase oxygen...No LR or LS or anything...just an empty glass wall tank.

My main tank(IM Nuvo Fusion 20G) has only the pair of Astrea Snails and is being kept fallow for a minimum of 75 days...During this time, will run a broadband antibiotic on the Main Tank.

It's been 24 hrs since I dosed the Cupramine....seemed to have got the drops wrong as the Cu levels reach .6 yesterday....Did a 10% water change and on testing this morning the level have reduced by not much(.45 - .6)...Am using JBL & Salifert to test, however, salifert puts the reading to about(.25 - .5)...Will not be dosing again in the next week and will observe the fish.

ph: 7.8 - 8.0 & ammonium has not increased(@ <.05).

Questions:

How long can fish go without eating during treatment(tried pellets, flakes, brine & Mysis shrimp), as the fish are not eating anything?

Ich spots are back with each fish hving around 2-3 spots on them. Clownfish are actively swimming around, however, the Angel, played dead for around 2 hrs, before he began floating around(not really swimming around)...None of the fish are gasping, however, breathing is heavy and none are eating...Yellow Angel seems to be affected the most.

Since, I've started the treatment, I plan to run the course and not do anything to further cause stress to the already stressed fish.

Anything which could help me make them a bit more comfortable during treatment would be appreciated.

 

[GilroyC]

The Cloudy Water is in the QT...Not DT....came up after dosing Cupramine.

The QT filter has Biopad (Filter Floss), Nitrate Remover(Nitrax) & Bioplus Fine(Blue Colored Sponge)

 

[GilroyC]

Update: 36 hrs since Cupramine was administered....None of my fish are eating, while my clownfish still swim around the tank....However, my yellow angel is losing life fast....Have performed water changes and lowered the Copper to .3 - .45, however am not sure whether the Angel would pull through tonight...

Have decided to abort the treatment in order to get my fish back into life(i.e getting them to reduce stress and begin eating), hence, have added the Carbon Pad to the filter....Will be doing a massive 75% water change tonight to try and quicken the removal of Cu from my QT Tank...Will wait 3 weeks to ensure that the fish have regularized, then would proceed with the treatment again with extreme caution.

What are the odds with hyposalanity? will it affect my snails if I lower the salanity to 1.009? In how many days is the Salanity to be reduced?....My LFS told me to run Hyposalanity at around 1.020 for around 2 months, as this level assists in lowering the capabilities of parasite from infecting fish....Not sure, how true this is?

Question: Do I allow the fish to remain in QT while Copper zero's down and observe for 3 weeks before administering Cupramine again or Hyposalanity OR do I move the fish bac into the DT and allow them to recover in their more natural environment while proceeding with Hyposalinity treatment.

 

[scooter31707]

My understanding Cooper does not treat for number of illness, it actually masks other parasites that rears it's ugly head 3-4 weeks after being removed from the cooper. Hypo will kill your snails. Also with hypo if it goes to .008, at this point it will be unsafe for the fish and if goes to .010 it will not be effected against ich. That's why TTM is the better method and less stress on the fish and yourself.

 

[Dmorty217]

Your fish aren't eating because of being intolerant of copper, I'm going thru the same thing. Either you stop treatement or trust you have fattened up your fish enough to survive a hunger strike.

 

[LargeAngels]

How are you testing copper levels? Very few test kits will measure Cupramine properly. Seachems test kit is a royal pain. Also most ammonia test kits will measure a FALSE positive for ammonia with Cupramine. I have used Seachems ammonia badge. As others stated don't add anything else unless you know it works.

Do you have any filter material from DT you can use in QT?

 

[ThRoewer]

...

What are the odds with hyposalanity? will it affect my snails if I lower the salanity to 1.009? In how many days is the Salanity to be reduced?...

Most snails will not tolerate such low salinity.

I just switched one of my QTs to hyposalinity. I just drained out a bit over half the saltwater and replaced it with RO to bring it down to 1.010. The fish didn't show any signs of being bothered by the sudden salinity drop.
After a short while I adjust it to 1.009. The step in going down is only to make sure not to go too low.
Algae (film and hairy algae) and bacteria may also handle the drop without significant die-offs.

...My LFS told me to run Hyposalanity at around 1.020 for around 2 months, as this level assists in lowering the capabilities of parasite from infecting fish....Not sure, how true this is?...

Not true if you want to kill off ich. It also has no detrimental effect on the parasite and it's capability to infect fish.
It may however reduce stress and help the fish's immune system to fight off infections.
Though it will usually not be enough if the fish are already severely sick.
1.020 is not even really considered hyposaline but rather just on the very low end of the oceans' salinity range.
You can run a FOWLR tank on that level indefinitely. Even many inverts (crabs, shrimp, snails, worms,...) may handle this salinity if acclimated slow enough.

...
Question: Do I allow the fish to remain in QT while Copper zero's down and observe for 3 weeks before administering Cupramine again or Hyposalanity OR do I move the fish bac into the DT and allow them to recover in their more natural environment while proceeding with Hyposalinity treatment.

I wouldn't move the fish back to the DT.
Just clean and set up the QT to hyposalinity and put the fish in. You could add CP in addition if you suspect velvet.

 

[GilroyC]

Morning All,

Update: I lost my Yellow Angel....(more due to the overdose of Cupra mine more than the ich)....My clowns are swimming normally and the heavy breathing has reduced(not gone)....They're still not eating, however, they did make an attempt to take food into their mouth but spat it right back.

Copper is reading @ .2, however, ammonium shows @ .1 - Using JBL & Salifert Test Kits.

Will do another 50% Water Change and try to remove all Copper ASAP....My goal right now is be able to regularize the lives of my clownfish....I need them to begin eating and show no signs of stress while in QT for a minimum of 3 weeks before I proceed with the treatment(will try Hyposalanity) again.

My QT isn't cycled and hence, used New Salt water Mix and DT Water as the initial source, however, with all the WC's to remove the Copper am sure there is no more beneficial anything in this tank, hence, the rise in ammonium.

Honestly, I do not want to move anything from the DT to QT...I do have Prime & Stability which I could use once Copper is reading "0'....and allow the QT to try and establish itself, while ensuring that my clownfish remain stable and healthy.

 

[GilroyC]

Afternoon All,

Well I have been going through many posts and write ups about fish related diseases and cures. While many agree that by keeping the DT fallow for 75 days ensures that 99% of the ICH & Velvet parasites are cleared, I find that there are approx. an equal no. of posts on various forums which say that despite going through fallow times and QT, their priced fish ends up with what they're trying or tried to remove so bad.

Question: While we all want that our fish and tanks remain healthy, is there any scope of such disease being able to thrive, despite all the caution taken to ensure it doesn't....Even if this percentage is 50-50, does it not make sense, with allowing the fish to remain in DT and ensure optimal living conditions and build a strong immune system assisting them to negotiate all diseases and infections - unless the percentage switched to 80-20(minimum)

I agree that if you wake up one morning and find your fish gasping and with all sorts of parasites on him/her, you immediately proceed to treat him....however, just saying, that after reading so much, it seems people have rushed to do things(including myself), that at the EOD, there is no way to gauge whether all this trouble is worth it or not(Your Fish First; then yourself)

This might sound like a horrible question, however, I'm just started in this hobby due to my 6 yo girl and being 5 weeks into this, has already got me doing and thinking of more than I'd imagined.....And I'm loving it, but not at the expense of losing my fish.

 

[microlady]

You might have noticed some of my posts in this section. I've been keeping saltwater fish on and off for decades with no major problems, but this past year it seems like a super strain of ich has gotten into my display. All fish were quarantined and the tank was left fallow twice, but somehow it is still there. So far only one angel is showing symptoms, so I'm choosing to ride it out. Of course, if the situation starts deteriorating I'm prepared to intervene. Crypto, or ich, is a pain to control. I should have quarantined everything from the beginning and never allowed it into the tank. Actually I believe it entered in on either live rock, a coral plug, or some inverts that I got at a local pet store. Velvet or Brooklynella are not two that you can usually ride out. I battled one of these along with ich last year and suffered heavy losses.

So I'm in agreement with you. Sometimes you need to leave things be. I did everything to rid my system of ich this past year aside from tearing it down and sterilizing it. I refuse to do that because of all the coral and inverts involved. The fish I keep are going to have to tough it out, and I'm praying that they do. Research shows that they can develop immunity over time and the ich should cycle out within a year or two if it isn't added again. I don't plan on adding anything else to the tank so that is what I'm hoping for.

Good luck!