Ich in a Large Tank

[tolthoff]

Thanks for the insite Paul B, i just wanted you to know that you've had your 100g tank as long as I've been alive!!

I understand the concept of Qting all of my fish, but my qtine tank is not large enough (30gal). Also, the rest of my fish (yellow tang, coral beauty, 4 clownfish, and a niger trigger are all happy and healthy. No signs of ich on any other fish. I agree with the opinion, (eloquently stated by Paul B), that it is unhealthy conditions and stress that bring the ich out. I stressed out my hippo tang, he showed signs of ich, but he's recovering. A good friend of mine and fellow local reefer, suggested that putting the hippo tang in qtine may increase the stress level (small tank) and actually be worse than putting him directly into the display. I thought I would watch him for a couple days (treating at the same time), then add him to the display tank, where he will be much happier.

 

[Paul B]

Tangs are more prone to ich that most fish due to a couple of things. One of the things is that most tangs do not live alone. I have been diving since the seventees and don't remember ever seeing a tang alone. They really want to be in a school. They are not designed to defend themselves alone or find food. Of course in our tanks they do these things but it is un natural for them to go about their business alone. They also don't want to be in water a foot deep and they know they are in shallow water. You never see hippo tanks in such shallow water. They are very stressed and never get over it so they need a little more babying. I have kept many of them and they all seem to live about ten years. I don't know their normal lifespan but it is probably about 15 ( thats a guess) Every ten years I seem to have an accident that kills a lot of fish otherwise they would live longer.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[FishTruck]

Hey man. I am going through the same thing with my 300. My fish range from apparently totally healthy and disease free (most of them), spots with no other apparent stress (two fish), or healthy to dead overnight with no spots or clear cause of death (three fish).

The only way to theoretically eradicate the Ich and not ruin your tank for all future reef use is to remove ALL the fish for six to eight weeks minimum. Treat the display with hypo if you want, but, NOT copper. Also, raise the temp to 83 degrees to speed up the lifecycle and starvation cycle of the Ich. However... plenty of people have posted stories about how they went through all this and the Ich came back anyway.

I can tell from your post that you are not going to fallow the tank.

Neither did I. So... based on my anecdote of one tank with Ich, and lots of reading from people I respect...

To help your fish stay healthy enough to become immune... do all the obvious stuff people have mentioned.

I do think that anything else you do, that does not hurt the main fish population, and reduces the number of parasites will help. This includes UV (high dose), cleaner shrimp, Ozone, and removing obviously infected fish for sacrifice / isolation. This is similar (in my mind) to isolating patients in a hospital, surgical debridement, fresh air, and other things we do in humans to help minimize the damage / spread of a given parasite, bacterium, or virus.

Regarding ozone. It can kill what goes through the ozone reactor, but, will not systemically wipe out every parasite in your whole tank. I would say that EITHER ozone or UV would be helpful. The total number of gallons that can be exposed to lethal UV or OZONE will define your success with this type of equipment. So, if you use both, plumb them in parallel, not in series.

Skip the Kich Ich or anything else that has you turn off your skimmer while in use. This CAN hurt the tank.

I am about 2.5 months into my Ich. I have one NASO tang with about three total spots. I have a purple tang that was loaded with spots who was pulled out, treated with Copper and isolated for six weeks and is now healthy and back in display.

You would think I would learn... but... I brought home this NASO tang, allegedly quarantined for three weeks at LFS in coppper. He immediately gets a nice white spot on his nose and three on his right fin. Probably picked it up from my tank... but... without an official QT on my end, I will never know for sure. He was too big to fit in my 20 gallon QT system... that's my excuse. He is not getting sick though. Eating, fat and happy otherwise. I still feel like a J%ck %ss though.

One final opinion, I think that there are different strains out there and the virulence is probably variable. Just because one gets lucks with a strain that is not so nasty does not mean that future strains will be manageable. So... it is never too late to start quarantining new arrivals. Especially if they are arriving from all corners of the globe.

Good luck and post your progress!

 

[FishTruck]

dp

 

[Paul B]

One final opinion, I think that there are different strains out there and the virulence is probably variable. Just because one gets lucks with a strain that is not so nasty does not mean that future strains will be manageable

This is true

 

[e55MD]

The Ich in my tank looks to be getting better since last night. I hardly saw any spots on my fish. Besides soaking all my food in Garlic/Selcon, the only other thing I did was add a neon goby who I have seen cleaning my large Angels regularly at the station he set up for himself.
Yesterday, I purchased a 2nd Emporer Aquatics 80W high output UV sterilizer in an effort to kill as many protozoa as I possibly can. I plan on keeping both these sterilizers running permanently.
The Ich might just be in their multiplying stage before they come back so the battle is not yet won of course.

 

[Crazy One]

I'm really suprised nobody recommended keeping a cleaner wrasse.

 

[Paul B]

I'm really suprised nobody recommended keeping a cleaner wrasse.

THats because a cleaner wrasse will do nothing to cure ich. They will eat some paracites but the paracites on the scales of the fish are not the problem. It's the ones in the gills which do the damage and on our small fish a cleaner wrasse can not get in there. For every paracite you (or the wrasse) sees, there are hundreds or thousands more on the sand waiting to infect something.

 

[Crazy One]

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure if the wrasse helped control the ick to a minimum until the fish built a tolerace to it.

 

[depresed34]

uv

uv

took y uv down many moons ago fish are doing fine ,cleaning wrass good they are cleanibg fish ,even their gills,when I had sick powder blue withick they were all over himmore than any other fish,who do think cleaning fish in the ocean?I dont think they have q tanks ,Cu treatments

 

[mm949]

i did...???
funny thing about paul's comment i saw my kole tangs mouth open and gills flared out swimming around and out popped the cleaner wrasse head first.....he has going thru the gill plate and out the mouth

the fastest way of curing ich is to remove adults BEFORE they start laying eggs

again previously mentioned just used the wrasses and garlic to remove the ich.....no reoccurance to date

 

[depresed34]

uv

uv

took my uv down many moons ago fish are doing fine ,cleaning wrass good they are cleanibg fish ,even their gills,when I had sick powder blue withick they were all over himmore than any other fish,who do think cleaning fish in the ocean?I dont think they have q tanks ,Cu treatments

 

[Paul B]

If you believe that cleaner fish will cure ich than by all means put in cleaner fish.
Fish in the sea don't die from ich but not because of cleaner fish.

 

[s ruppa]

just thought i would share an experience. i had ich. removed all fish and QT'd them using a hyposalinity treatment. i doubled everything as far as time goes. my tank had no fish and no new additions for 12 weeks. the fish in QT had no signs of ich for 6 weeks after a 6 week hypo treatment. the fish went back in the main. the PBT showed signs of ich after a week.

i was diligent with my salinity measurements. i am not sure why i stll had ich.

now i just make sure to keep my temp stable, parameters great, feed a variety of foods. over all just try to keep a comfortable happy enviroment for the fish. now the PBT has no signs of ich and is doing great.

i am not saying dont QT. i still will QT new fish. it gives me a chance to watch them and make sure they are eating good and dont ave something other than ich.

just one more opinion to help you make your choice

 

[Crazy One]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13071474#post13071474 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
If you believe that cleaner fish will cure ich than by all means put in cleaner fish.
Fish in the sea don't die from ich but not because of cleaner fish.

It sounds like your getting all upset over nothing, some people may have tried differnet ways to either control ick (even though it still might not be gone completely) or compltely get rid of it.
I thought thats what RC was intended for? To help out unknowledgable people and make suggestions that may help.
BUT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
With a post count over 6000 you must know alot more than most of us do.

 

[FishTruck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13074054#post13074054 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by s ruppa
just thought i would share an experience. i had ich. removed all fish and QT'd them using a hyposalinity treatment. i doubled everything as far as time goes. my tank had no fish and no new additions for 12 weeks. the fish in QT had no signs of ich for 6 weeks after a 6 week hypo treatment. the fish went back in the main. the PBT showed signs of ich after a week.

i was diligent with my salinity measurements. i am not sure why i stll had ich.

now i just make sure to keep my temp stable, parameters great, feed a variety of foods. over all just try to keep a comfortable happy enviroment for the fish. now the PBT has no signs of ich and is doing great.

i am not saying dont QT. i still will QT new fish. it gives me a chance to watch them and make sure they are eating good and dont ave something other than ich.

just one more opinion to help you make your choice

Cudos for going through all that for your fish.

One could only surmise that in your case, the hypo was not lethal to the parasite and it sat, in an undetectable level, on your fish. That stinks! From reading... I think most people put the most faith in Copper for the fish in hospital or quarantine tank. That being said, there are others who fallow the DT for six weeks or longer only to find the Ich come back later.

 

[e55MD]

Update: I still have ich. Not t he worst I have ever seen, but present nonetheless. To date, I have added a 2nd 80W high output UV sterilizer, a neon goby who always seems to be busy cleaning my fish, and now 4 cleaner shrimp.
I have thought about setting up several hospital tanks. Since I have some very large fish these would need to be 80 gallons plus and I would need 3-4 of them. Since hospital tanks have no live rock, this would involve huge amounts of daily water changes. I have a real job- no time to effectively change hundreds of gallons of water a week. The impracticality of this, plus the cost of running and purchasing multiple tanks just makes all this seem like a formidable task.
Hospitalizing and treating with copper/hyposalinity is easy if you have a 80 gallon tank with 5 small fishes. Not the case here.
Regrettfully, I think I will be forced to let the disease process run its course. I will continue with the garlic and selcon soaked food, and maybe, if iget desperate enough, I will try one of those "reef-safe" treatments despite my feelings that they are worthless.
I have leanrt a very important lesson from all of this and that is I will QT all my fish in the future. Hopefully, not all my present ones will be dead!

 

[Paul B]

Unfortunately ich doesen't always behave as we would like it to.
In about half the cases it will not bother anything although every once in a while you will see a few spots. Thats how it is in the sea. Fish in the sea do not die from ich because as the paracites mature they fall off and go and infect something else in a vast ocean, we only have a vast tank which is a few square feet.
Ich has no other place to go and must re infect the same fish if it wants to keep living. Some fish will (for reasons not fully understood) fight it off and will become immune. Others will die.
I see you are an anesthesiologist, if you have access to quinicrine hydrocloride it can be used in conjunction with copper to clear fish of ich in about a day. It will not cure a tank in that time but the fish will get immediate relief. The quinicrine alone "may" kill the paracites in a longer time and although it will not affect crustaceons and many inverts it will kill corals.
Good luck.
Paul

 

[e55MD]

Update: My ich is still present and gradually getting worse. I have decided to bite the bullet and move all my fish to a HT for hyposalinity treatment. I was planning on doing copper as well, but I have read that puffers are intolerant of it and I do not want to kill my golden puffer or my blue-spotted puffer (my oldest fish, had him for 3 years now).
For those of you with experience of hyposalinity, over what time period did you drop the SG to 1.009? An expert at my LFS told me that I could do it right away, that fish can tolerate an acute drop in SG, but that you need to bring it back up slowly.
I have invested too much time and money on my DT to always have to worry about ich coming back. I want an "ich free" system.
My HT is going to be 240 gallons 8x2x2- quite a project in itself.
This whole thing really sucks but I have learned a valuable lesson-QUARANTINE!

 

[Freed]

You can drop salinity over one or two days if you like. Bring it back up very slowly over a week or two period.