Ich in frozen food?

[Dmorty217]

Have a false personifer pair and scribbled in a QT tank with no problems along with a Desjaradini in a 100g (not connected together) suddenly last night out of no where I see the male flashing and then scraping against a rock. It's been a week tomorrow when I picked up the larrys and started feeding and that's the ONLY thing that's changed. Fish were 100% ich free before this... Am I losing my mind? I have started treating with CP but I guess my real question is how do you keep your fish healthy if this can happen?? Now I'm forced to treat the 625g out of paranoia. I like expensive fish so living with ich is totally out of the question and it never ends well anyway.

 

[ThRoewer]

1. How are you sure the fish were 100% ich free?

2. ich via food seems far fetched but in theory it might be something that could happen if ingredients from tropical saltwater sources are used. Though, too my knowledge most frozen food ingredients come either from freshwater or cold to temperate saltwater where Cryptocaryon irritans as a tropical and subtropical parasite shouldn't be present.

My guess is that either the fish were not 100% ich free as thought or that you are seeing ghosts. Scratching can have many reasons and not all fish that have ich scratch. I always wait until I see unmistakable symptoms, preferably the typical white dots, before calling it ich.

 

[Pwnm30rdi3]

Give this a read: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2291152

 

[snorvich]

Give this a read: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2291152

This link involves treating with copper which is highly unreliable even if done correctly, and gives the story a variable which is totally uncontrolled.

 

[snorvich]

1. How are you sure the fish were 100% ich free?

2. ich via food seems far fetched but in theory it might be something that could happen if ingredients from tropical saltwater sources are used. Though, too my knowledge most frozen food ingredients come either from freshwater or cold to temperate saltwater where Cryptocaryon irritans as a tropical and subtropical parasite shouldn't be present.

My guess is that either the fish were not 100% ich free as thought or that you are seeing ghosts. Scratching can have many reasons and not all fish that have ich scratch. I always wait until I see unmistakable symptoms, preferably the typical white dots, before calling it ich.

And what he said.

 

[reefwiser]

Food and ich connection is really not possible the freezing of the food would kill ich.
Tank Transfer Method would be my approach. less chance of appetite suppression. Due to medications. Especially for high dollar fish would tend to be picky eaters.

 

[Dmorty217]

I should have mentioned on Friday morning the fish were all eating with gusto and by evening they had stopped eating and the male was a very light black color instead of nice and dark like he should be. All fish are hiding only coming out periodically... It was exactly 5 days from starting to feed the food until I saw the first signs of what I'm assuming is ich. It happened in 2 different tanks without cross contaminating the food. The male had been at Reefwise for almost 3 months being fed DrGs medicated food and I know he also feeds LRF. I know this sounds crazy but I'm at a total loss at this point. So if I'm not actually seeing spots I the fish how long should l let the complete reversal of behavior and not eating continue before doing something? I guess I can go get some storage containers and do TTM on them to see if the behavior reverses? Again I'm dumbfounded

 

[Dmorty217]

Well the scribbled is laying on its side breathing heavy so it's a goner for sure the male is still swimming around so we will see if I can save him. Still haven't seen the juv which is never good. I lost my bandit and crosshatch male in June to velvet I believe judging by how quickly the fish went and one after another. The tank was broke down and sat dry for 5 months, same with the rock. Velvet can survive 5 months in the rock and tank with no water?? I just don't understand *** is going on. Makes me not want to buy any fish and quit the hobby... Disease is coming out of thin air it appears, I have never experienced something like this before.

 

[Dmorty217]

If it is velvet then CP is my only option or at least option I have on hand. The tank has CP in it but the fish don't seem to be showing any signs of change. Any advice on action to take would be greatly appreciated. The tang seems mostly unaffected by whatever this is.

 

[gone fishin]

Just tossing stuff out there. I wonder if it is a bad batch of food IE bacterial, contaminated with something from manufacture.

 

[Dmorty217]

Just tossing stuff out there. I wonder if it is a bad batch of food IE bacterial, contaminated with something from manufacture.

That's what I thought but everyone else seems to think I'm crazy to think that. I should mention that the tank sat fishless when first setup 6+ weeks before these three arrived. Timeline of this is December 17th fish arrive. December 21st started feeding Larrys. On Christmas evening I notice the change in feeding and observe the flashing and rock scraping with the male. Also notice the juv and scribbled hiding, dosed CO that night. Yesterday the juv was out some and also observed the scraping. At this point I'm thinking its velvet with the heavy breathing and lack of appetite, also random swimming in one place in the corner for a few mins then moves on. All things that weren't occurring. I never saw any spots (if velvet spots mean it's too late) before treating. Really don't want to lose these fish

 

[Thales]

Frozen food being the vector is hard for me to get behind - even more so since the fish were added just a few days before the food switch.

Have you done a freshwater dip on the fish that are having a bad time? FW dips can give some immediate relief.

 

[ThRoewer]

It sounds like velvet to me as well. Against popular believe, it can be present at a low level for quite a while before rearing its ugly head.

What had been your initial treatment, before you noticed something was wrong?

 

[Pwnm30rdi3]

This link involves treating with copper which is highly unreliable even if done correctly, and gives the story a variable which is totally uncontrolled.

I thought copper was the most reliable and sure-fire way to remove ich from a marine tank? That's what I've read in all the stickies and posts on this forum.

Anyways, that's not why I posted the link. I posted the link to back up the fact that ich cannot survive in frozen food. The parasite would be killed when frozen.

Its common practice in the food industry to freeze raw fish before preparing it for guests. If the fish is frozen for the correct amount of time, all parasites will die off. Removing the risk of food poisoning.

 

[slief]

I've been using LRS foods every day for a year or more. I follow him on Facebook and he has some serious freezers that would kill anykind of parasite at -25. I'd look elsewhere. In the mean time, I would suggest adding air stones to the tank. If in the off chance it is ich, it attacks the gills making it difficult for the fish to get enough o2. An air stone by a power head will help staturate the water with dissolved o2 which in turn should help the fish.

 

[Jasanden]

First off omg I'm so ,$$: sorry this is happening to you. I do not quarantine which I know is a big mistake. I have just killed more fish in quarantine then I care to admit. My job simply does not allow me the time an dedication it takes to run multiple tanks without any help. That aside have you tried a formalin bath? When I acclimate a new fish I almost always do a formalin bath. It's a very harsh drug but when done properly can help with velvet. Whichever route you choose good luck I hope everyone survives and you figure out what the problem is.

I would ditch the LRF if for no other reason then peace of mind.

 

[gone fishin]

That's what I thought but everyone else seems to think I'm crazy to think that. I should mention that the tank sat fishless when first setup 6+ weeks before these three arrived. Timeline of this is December 17th fish arrive. December 21st started feeding Larrys. On Christmas evening I notice the change in feeding and observe the flashing and rock scraping with the male. Also notice the juv and scribbled hiding, dosed CO that night. Yesterday the juv was out some and also observed the scraping. At this point I'm thinking its velvet with the heavy breathing and lack of appetite, also random swimming in one place in the corner for a few mins then moves on. All things that weren't occurring. I never saw any spots (if velvet spots mean it's too late) before treating. Really don't want to lose these fish

I was thinking something that may have been externally introduced during processing. Maybe a chemical, cleaner, bacteria.

 

[ThRoewer]

First off omg I'm so ,$$: sorry this is happening to you. I do not quarantine which I know is a big mistake. I have just killed more fish in quarantine then I care to admit. My job simply does not allow me the time an dedication it takes to run multiple tanks without any help. That aside have you tried a formalin bath? When I acclimate a new fish I almost always do a formalin bath. It's a very harsh drug but when done properly can help with velvet. Whichever route you choose good luck I hope everyone survives and you figure out what the problem is.

I would ditch the LRF if for no other reason then peace of mind.

+1 on the formalin bath

Though I would always recommend an observation period of no less than 6 weeks.

When I researched articles on Cryptocaryon immunity I also found articles about immunity against Amyloodinium: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24180522&postcount=5
So it seems reasonable that - like with Cryptocaryon - partially immune fish can be carriers without being affected themselves and form a reservoir for infecting other fish.

 

[Dmorty217]

The scribbled and juv died. Roewer, I ritual treatment was observation I usually wait a week after fish arrive and are eating well to treat proactively for anything. I just upped the dose of CP to 80mg per to hopefully save the male somehow. This is only the second time I have encountered velvet and last time it ended much like this did. Guess I will be leaving the 625g fishless for at least 6 weeks just to be sure and at this point I think my QT systems are worthless and need to be taken down. Certainly can't use them for any fish with velvet present. So I guess the real question is how to avoid this in the future? Treat from the start and assume they have velevet?? This is the second time now this has happened to me with new fish. Last time I lost 2 Regals, my Bandit and crosshatch male. This has been a real pricey endevour being introduced to velvet back to back for the first time in 17 years of marine tanks

 

[jmm]

I had an "impossible" introduction of ich question I posted on here. At first it looked like fin rot, then ich, then flukes, then velvet, and the fish kept dying. All the "help" on here was stock advice and most didn't read my description of steps I'd take. It was impossible to remove the fish since they hid and wouldn't approach the trap. So I watched them die, one by one. It was a helpless feeling and none of the advice helped.

And then I was shocked by what turned out to be the heater. I removed it and the remaining fish quit hiding, got their color back and started acting normal. Nobody suggested that.

Sometimes it isn't a disease, even though it appears to be. I might suggest poisoning from a contaminate you might not have considered. Heavy metal from a defective piece of equipment or airborne from an air condtioner or heater picking something up in another room and bringing it to your display tank.

So many diseases have similar outward signs as do irritations caused by things other than diseases.