Ich POLL!

[MrTuskfish]

There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......

-ick is a parisite with a well known life cycle. It absolutely can be eradicated if the correct measures are taken. "ick is present in every tank" is absolutely not true and it is very misleading when people make such statements. Parisites do not appear out of thin air. They have to come in on something, period.

-ick outbreaks are definately stress related. When ick IS present in a system, any new stressor is likely to make it flare up.

-QT is QT. Treatment is treatment. Treatment needs to be done in QT, but QT does not treat.

-"treatment" is either hyposalinity or copper. (or the transfer method, but that scares me )

-QT without treatment is helpful for letting a fish acclimate in peace and be in the best place to fight the parisite if the fish is then placed in a system where ick IS present. QT without treatment absolutely does not assure that the fish is not carrying ick.

-Ick can be managed in a healthy system, and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it.

I'm a little slow, ; but, hey, I'm getting old. Are you pointing out contradictions or making statements?

 

[MrTuskfish]

That is a good point and maybe that is a better approach.

How can you count "votes'' from responses like "I can't see any sign of ich, but I know its there"? It sounds like my youngest daughter describing the monster under her bed...when she was 3.

 

[jimmyj7090]

I'm a little slow, ; but, hey, I'm getting old. Are you pointing out contradictions or making statements?

I'm trying to outline the known facts. There are no contridictions in what I posted, but some of the things I posted contridicted what others seem to have posted

If it read like I was pointing out contridctions, double check some of the "IF"s that I capitalized for emphasis.

 

[briankmarsh1980]

There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......

-ick is a parisite with a well known life cycle. It absolutely can be eradicated if the correct measures are taken. "ick is present in every tank" is absolutely not true and it is very misleading when people make such statements. Parisites do not appear out of thin air. They have to come in on something, period.

-ick outbreaks are definately stress related. When ick IS present in a system, any new stressor is likely to make it flare up.

-QT is QT. Treatment is treatment. Treatment needs to be done in QT, but QT does not treat.

-"treatment" is either hyposalinity or copper. (or the transfer method, but that scares me )

-QT without treatment is helpful for letting a fish acclimate in peace and be in the best place to fight the parisite if the fish is then placed in a system where ick IS present. QT without treatment absolutely does not assure that the fish is not carrying ick.

-Ick can be managed in a healthy system, and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it.

Nicely said

Marine ich is a living thing/parasite if you never let it in your tank you will never have it.
So treat all fish as if they have it even if they don't.
The parasite is smart you may think it goes away but it doesn't it will learn your light cycles and hide when the lights come on. You can turn the lights on in the middle of the night and that's when you will catch them.
So don't assume your fish just got over it cause they didn't! The parasite just got smarter

 

[opie one]

i blelieve ich to be in almost every tank, you can qt your fish but unless you treat it for ich it will be in your tank, just because it doesnt show signs of it doesnt mean its ich free, .

 

[opie one]

you can take a powder blue that is ich free and mix up a clean bucket of water and throw him in there and he will devolp ich. so where does it come from.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I'm trying to outline the known facts. There are no contridictions in what I posted, but some of the things I posted contridicted what others seem to have posted

If it read like I was pointing out contridctions, double check some of the "IF"s that I capitalized for emphasis.

If your statement:...."and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it" is a known fact; do you have a source?

However, I do agree with your opening statement:"There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......" That is why I prefer this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1986013

 

[MrTuskfish]

i blelieve ich to be in almost every tank, you can qt your fish but unless you treat it for ich it will be in your tank, just because it doesnt show signs of it doesnt mean its ich free, .

Ich cannot live indefinitely without a fish host. If a tank has ich, it will show up.

 

[MrTuskfish]

you can take a powder blue that is ich free and mix up a clean bucket of water and throw him in there and he will devolp ich. so where does it come from.

Have you done this? have a source that has? If you have just a basic knowledge of the ich parasite's life cycle, you must know that this reasoning is absurd. If a fish and its environment are ich free, the fish gets a parasite anyway? This goes way beyond anything I've heard on this subject.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Nicely said

Marine ich is a living thing/parasite if you never let it in your tank you will never have it.
So treat all fish as if they have it even if they don't.
The parasite is smart you may think it goes away but it doesn't it will learn your light cycles and hide when the lights come on. You can turn the lights on in the middle of the night and that's when you will catch them.
So don't assume your fish just got over it cause they didn't! The parasite just got smarter

Ordinarily, I'd just assume you were having fun; but on this thread....who know?

 

[jimmyj7090]

If your statement:...."and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it" is a known fact; do you have a source?

You have a good point, I don't have any references to back that up. I stated an assumption and later called it a fact. That was a mistake on my part.

That said, does anyone actually doubt that ick is present in many / most tanks? (The point I was trying to make was that though it is quite common for ick to be present, it IS possible to have a tank that is free of ick)

 

[jimmyj7090]

If your statement:...."and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it" is a known fact; do you have a source?

However, I do agree with your opening statement:"There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......" That is why I prefer this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1986013

Hey, no fair, you edited while I was quoting you

I definately agree that thread is the one to read, and this thread is the one that we would be better off without (because of the confusing and maybe false info contained in this thread).



The PBT in the bucket, well, it had ick on it before it went into the bucket.

Ick getting smart and hiding when the lights are on.........? Was that a joke?
Quoted from the above linked thread with the accurate info;
"The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont."

 

[MrTuskfish]

You have a good point, I don't have any references to back that up. I stated an assumption and later called it a fact. That was a mistake on my part.

That said, does anyone actually doubt that ick is present in many / most tanks? (The point I was trying to make was that though it is quite common for ick to be present, it IS possible to have a tank that is free of ick)

Yes, having an ich free tank isn't that difficult. I think real experts like Fenner, Goemans, and others would doubt that ich is present in most tanks. "Many" and "most" can be miles apart....I think you're correct on the "many". I also think the owners of those tanks are going to realize the seriousness of their situation before long. I seldom make statements like the following, but here goes. I'd bet that if you could poll only owners of tanks that have been running smoothly for, say 5 years, and have kept several fish alive for at least 5 years; you would find very few of them who thought they had ich in their tanks.

 

[EllieSuz]

The only Ich I've seen was in a quarantine tank and the fish was treated. Had I not quarantined that fish, I most certainly would have exposed my Display fish to the parasite. Does it exist in every tank? I'm not expert enough to comment. I only know I've never seen any symptoms in four years of reefing. My fish survived parasite free through two upgrades, which means they went through very stressful situations at least twice with no trace of Ich.

 

[MrTuskfish]

The only Ich I've seen was in a quarantine tank and the fish was treated. Had I not quarantined that fish, I most certainly would have exposed my Display fish to the parasite. Does it exist in every tank? I'm not expert enough to comment. I only know I've never seen any symptoms in four years of reefing. My fish survived parasite free through two upgrades, which means they went through very stressful situations at least twice with no trace of Ich.

Great. That's the way it should be. See it, treat it, have an ich free tank forever. You should be able to stress (becoming the most overused word) in any manner. It can't get what ain't there.

 

[syrinx]

If you want to know what they think- just ask them-they generally avail themselves to offer an opinion in a timely mannor. I think in the real world-not the 10% of reefers online here-most tanks have ich present in some form. Thats just my opinion-no better or worse than any other on a subject that can`t be quantified. I can`t offer if one tank is ich free just because a fish had ich in it 12 years ago, was taken out and treated and still thrives- while the tank never saw treatment- the tank has a UV,but thats proven not to kill off ich. Will it reappear one day? It might-longest I have seen a tank go asymptomatic is 6 years-but maybe it will happen. All I know is that all tanks that people believ are 100% ich free- have no way to prove it either. The key is if you are going to embark on any treatment program- do it all the way- the right way, so you are insured the best possible result.

 

[jimmyj7090]

Yes, having an ich free tank isn't that difficult. I think real experts like Fenner, Goemans, and others would doubt that ich is present in most tanks. "Many" and "most" can be miles apart....I think you're correct on the "many". I also think the owners of those tanks are going to realize the seriousness of their situation before long. I seldom make statements like the following, but here goes. I'd bet that if you could poll only owners of tanks that have been running smoothly for, say 5 years, and have kept several fish alive for at least 5 years; you would find very few of them who thought they had ich in their tanks.

I think you and I are largely on the same page.

I will diverge a bit though and at least suggest that there are at least some very knowledgable and successful reef keepers that have accepted "managing" ick. It definately can be eradicated and or kept out of a system, but in some cases the stress of treament maybe harder on the fish than living with the parisite.

Personally I am pretty confident that my system is clean, and I will not add any new fish without treating them first. That said, I have killed more than one fish doing preventiitive treatment.

IMO either approach (eradication vs managment) has it's risks and it's benifits. I won't call either approach wrong, but I will cry foul when I seen misinformation posted (like ick appearing out of thin air, ick learning to hide, ick universally being present in every tank.......).

 

[briankmarsh1980]

Then I guess it was only in my tank before I killed off the parasite but during the day no visible
Parasites but if I turned the lights on at night bam fish would have them on them. And when I first started the parasites you could see all the time. After I pulled out all fish and QT them for 2 months I'm ich free. Everything I stated is just my experiences/opinions. I have only been reefing for 2 years so I'm still a newbe

 

[jimmyj7090]

IME sometimes the spots can be very hard to see under one type of lighting, and then much more evident under different light (like maybe the wild color shifts some MH lamps go through as they fire up, or flashlight light). I don't doubt your experience, I just question the explanation.

I seriously doubt that ick gets "smart", and as I understand it the spots are on the fish for at least a few days, then drop off. I don't see how they could hide.

I once QT'd a fish that I got locally and was confident was clean in the first place. QT had T5 lighting but with a kind of odd bulb combo. Fish looked perfect for 2 weeks. I moved it to my display and INSTANTLY saw that it was completely peppered with ick.

I believe you, I just don't think your parisites are that smart

 

[briankmarsh1980]

I could totally be wrong. I watched how they acted for over a year and noticed at first there would be spots all the time and after a few months my tank looked ich free. After about 6 months or so a fellow reefer was telling me that the ich will adjust to my lighting.... So I started testing the theory I would turn on my lights a few hours after they went off and sure enough fish had spots and I would do it again a couple hrs before the lights would be on and there would be spots. But during the day under normal lighting schedule no spots. Its was like that for another 6 months or so until I did a tank reset and started over. Maybe my parasites came from an ivy league school lol but it seamed to make sense. But yeah I guess its a theory I think to be true.