Ich POLL!

[Sk8r]

<img src="http://www.reefcentral.com/images/chimp_shaking_head.gif"/>
I second Snorvich. "Respecfully disagree" is fine. Argue the point, not re the poster. I believe the topic is supposed to be whether or not you can live with it possibly being in your tank.

Now, if I may express my own opinion, the stuff is not supernatural, and therefore has some earthly limitations. While its survival in 'encysted' form in the sandbed is hard to prove in a given tank---it would need to go into a form of suspended process to survive beyond its usual cycle. Brine shrimp can do it...but are obliged to hatch when wetted down. SFAIK there's nothing to inform us [as mere hobbyists] what the record is for an ich cyst, so we just don't know, but it does seem reasonable that ultimately the stuff has a lifespan, either as an infesting form, or as an encysted form. There is, yes, research which shows that once it breaks the cyst, it has 12 hours to find a fish host, or it dies.
This is me, now: It may also not be outstandingly 'clever' [having no brain] about finding a good part of a fish to infest, so that if it is not able to penetrate the defense, as in, say, landing in the gills---it's hosed. Ergo---pure me-guessing now---it is a pest that relies on overwhelming numbers [ie, no-chance-not, by sheer weight of numbers] to succeed.

Mandarins, having the consistency of Jell-o and a heckuva slime coat just about everywhere, aren't easy. Tangs, with their fast-working gills, ramjet breathing, and minimal slime, are almost certainly going to suck some in if it can be had in the tank.

So there will probably be a point, if you have low-susceptibility fish, haven't added anything to your tank in the last 6 months, that you don't have ich in your tank.

Just trying to get the discussion back on track.

 

[RBU1]

I agree sk8r, another thing to consider....Will corals consume this free floating stage? If you have a tank loaded with soft corals and anemones, would it be possible that the crypt is consumed by them?

 

[Sk8r]

I've thought this too. Greenbean, who is an expert, says no, that no one has ever found coral gut to contain ich in any form, so maybe it 'tastes' bad---[can you imagine a study project using a microscope to dissect coral guts?]---but then again, I'd like to know if there's one situation in tank conditions and another in the open ocean. Our tanks can get a concentration going that's a little thicker than you'd ever find in the ocean, which is why tangs are nearly a lead pipe cinch to get it, if available.

 

[snorvich]

The reinfection rate in our aquaria was explained to me as follows. Since virtually all fish in our aquaria sleep in the same location every night, and since the parasite drops at dark, it is very highly likely that a fish will reinfect itself with the increased density that will occur in a closed tank. In the ocean, with very large dynamic territories for most (but not all) fish, reinfection happens rarely.

 

[RBU1]

What about a fish that sleeps in an area of high flow?

 

[jcw]

I have ich.

And my only fish purchase for my brand new tank was from DD.

 

[RBU1]

Keep in mind jcw.....You can introduce crypt to your tank on anything wet.....

 

[jcw]

Well, I've added a lot of wet things...

2 Vortech pumps I bought used. (But washed and soaked them both in vinegar)
live rock and invertebrates from another tank
coral SPS/LPS from another tank twice
one LPS from LFS

I've always discarded the water they came in. But they were wet and went straight in.

I want to blame someone because I'm tired and angry and I'm out of tanks and water and patience. :hammer:

 

[RBU1]

Sorry to tell you it could have come in on any of the items you mentioned. Probably not the vortechs, but all the corals. If its in the cyst state and attached to the rock or coral base.....Guess what you have crypt. So the question is what are you going to do about it?

 

[Sk8r]

So sorry to hear that. One of the really neat thing in the hobby is how we trade around---but it has its problems.
There are 2 alternatives: treat all.
Or assess which fish has got it, how many susceptibles, and how serious it's likely to be. Eg, if you had a tankful of gobies, blennies, and a rabbit, and the rabbit showed a few---you'd be not too badly off. The rabbit is apt to throw it off and nobody else is that apt to get it. If you can resolutely wait it out for 6 months with NO new acquisitions, imho, your chances of it popping up again are lower and lower---particularly if you never stock a highly susceptible fish. If the afflicted fish is a tang, an angel, one of the fragiles---you're not likely to win that bet. You might lose the tang. The others might all survive---being blennies and gobies---given unremittingly excellent water quality and the dogged determination of the owner to NOT reinfest that tank or give the parasite another chance. But it's a sincere crap shoot: at best you probably lose the tang, and at worst it wipes your tank out. I'm not one who will tell EVERYBODY to take their tank fishless for 8 weeks, because situations differ, resources differ, and sometimes you've got fish that will survive the ich, but, say a breeding pair of mandarins---real problem in qt. I say---try to pick the course of least harm to the whole ecosystem you've got going, within the resources you've got---but at least learn from it, and resolve to study not to have that happen again.

 

[RBU1]

I will be the guinea pig....My tank has the tang with crypt and angels and crosshatch triggers.....Only fish showing signs is the tang. Been like that for about 3 weeks now. I will be placing a Scribbled angel in the main tank Saturday.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I agree sk8r, another thing to consider....Will corals consume this free floating stage? If you have a tank loaded with soft corals and anemones, would it be possible that the crypt is consumed by them?

Even if the inverts did consume forms of ich, it wouldn't solve the infestation. This would have hit & miss results similar to UV. You need a 100% kill rate. Like hypo or copper will do in the free swimming stage.

 

[RBU1]

Even if the inverts did consume forms of ich, it wouldn't solve the infestation. This would have hit & miss results similar to UV. You need a 100% kill rate. Like hypo or copper will do in the free swimming stage.

Did not say anything about inverts consuming it. Was talking about corals and anemones consuming it.

 

[Sk8r]

@ RBU1, Unfortunately, I fear the scribbled angel is somewhat more likely to get it for 2 reasons: 1) transferees are apparently more vulnerable, due to water change, stress, etc. and 2) angels are one of the highly vulnerable species, and one that will tend to die of it if they get it---as well as being picky eaters and hard to qt, and hard to treat, once they do. You didn't mention: had that angel been qt'd for its own potential problems (other kinds, as well as ich)? Had a chance to feed up and calm down after shipment/transfer? It's one thing to lunk along with a longterm situation and watch it closely, trying to improve it---another to change that situation's stability. But on the other hand I know how difficult angels can be in qt, one of the only real good reasons to have live rock in a qt tank. I hope to see a good outcome of this between-a-rock-and-hard-place-situation, but I'm worried. If you do get into trouble---I'd pull everybody to hypo (angels don't take well to copper, ime) and take some selected live rock along to the treatment. I've never used stress coat, dunno in the least if it's applicable to your situation, but can someone who has used it volunteer an opinion about applicability, here. It's been a decade since I kept this species, and I don't know what all people may know about them now that we didn't back in the day.

 

[RBU1]

SK8r.

The scribbled is in QT now and is eating like a pig. He was treated with copper and I believe Prazi. I purchased him from a person on RC Ccampbell......So the fish is as healthy as you can get. I feel fairly confident things will work out.

 

[y0ung0ne]

I had a outbreak and lost most of my fish from it tried qting and other methods and nothign seemed to help. Since then everything has been fine and working well. All fish are happy and healthy now. Vote yes. I think most tanks have it and depending on the fish health is when it shows.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Did not say anything about inverts consuming it. Was talking about corals and anemones consuming it.

Umm......corals and anemones ARE inverts.

 

[Sk8r]

Understood, RBU1. It's the devil and the deep blue that you get into when you have a complex situation and certain species. Any thought of pulling the tang out to treatment, since he's your Typhoid Mary? It's a case of we all know what's the BEST thing to do, the full 8-week fishless, but sometimes, especially with a huge and complex tank and big fish, you're left making do with the second-best solution, which is one thing I'd like to address. So despite all best efforts, you're IN one of those situations...should you treat the incoming fish with a slime coat inducer before introduction? Would that itself stress the fish? At very least, perhaps, get the water as perfect a match as you can and have the lights off so as not to confuse the fish, and to lower feeding-excitement in the others. Maybe a lighting-grid barrier ready in case of a fish-fight. Heck, I'd toss in garlic, not because it does anything at all to kill ich, but because it appears to be an appetite stimulant, and MIGHT increase slime coat. Do the best you can, treat that tank with kid gloves, and I wish you all kinds of luck.

 

[Sk8r]

@ young one, I'd like to ask you tank conditions when you had a qt failure. Were you using a cycled qt or a bare qt, any sponges involved, any transfer of nets, pumps, wet equipment, etc.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I had a outbreak and lost most of my fish from it tried qting and other methods and nothign seemed to help. Since then everything has been fine and working well. All fish are happy and healthy now. Vote yes. I think most tanks have it and depending on the fish health is when it shows.

Do you mean you tried to QT infected fish, or new fish? Did you treat with hypo or copper?