Ich - self resolving... ?

[nothing1191]

I was reading about everyone's experience with ridding their tank of ich.

Introduction of the parasite:
I bought a fish (blue hippo) about a year and a half ago and introduced it to my 75 gallon without quarantine, I didn't have a QT setup and against my better judgment when I got the fish home from the LFS I was so captivated by it that I introduced it despite seeing a few cysts. Though no other fish (at the time, couple of clowns, pygmy angel, gobie, couple damsels) ever showed signs the blue hippo slowly died off as it just wouldn't eat heartily.

Waiting to try again....
About 4 months later after the tank appeared be symptom free despite NO treatment whatsoever except temporary inline UV sterilization , I decided to give it another go. This time I shopped until I found a smaller hippo that had been at the LFS for a couple weeks and exhibited absolutely no symptoms and looked very healthy.

Time to find out....
Introduced it to the tank, it acclimated very well and ate very very well. A few weeks later along came the white spots.... so apparently 4 months with no symptoms and the ich was still present in the tank.

Treatment.... or lack there of
This being a very healthy, well acclimated blue tang I decided to use the natural treatment method rather than trying to QT the fish and treat it for ich after having had bad experiences with the last fish and stressing it out to the point where a fish that was not a strong eater, stopped altogether.

This new hippo continued to eat heartily. And a few days later the symptoms were gone... of course we all know they returned again shortly there after. However the fish was able to consistently fight the parasite off and survive (quite easily) over and over small outbreaks.

Present time...
The hippo in question was about 1.5" when purchased, today it measures about 5" - it grew rapidly after the introduction of a Naso tang that was about 4.5" when introduced. As of the time I am writing this, the hippo has not exhibited any smptoms of ich in the past 8-10 months.

The question is, in this observation did the fish develop an immunity to the parasite? Did a higher resistance over time develop which keyed the ich to die off? Or is the ich present but in such small qty due to the overall health of potential hosts that it is unable to manifest itself at normal levels where it can be observed as a symptom?

Anyone have any input?

 

[ladyonyx]

I had the exact same experience with my royal gramma. For about 3 months she suffered from small bouts of ich, which none of my other fish seemed to get. She's not exhibited symptoms now for about 9 months and my other fish never got it either. I guess it comes down to the fact that healthier fish that have a good appetite are more resistant to disease and have stronger immune systems that fight off parasites, especially reoccurring ones. I would imagine that once ich is present in a system and that system is not directly treated to eradicate all forms of the parasite, that it is present at extremely low levels, and that the disease is opportunistic and only manifests itself if a weak target comes along.

 

[ladyonyx]

Just found an interesting article; have a read:
http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html

 

[acrylic_300]

If the cause is resolved the ich will resolve.

Shipping stress is resolvable.

 

[Ohiomom]

However..the parasite is still in the tank and any new addition is vulnerable. Fish can develop an "immunity" or at least a resistance..but it is still there.

 

[calkulon]

However..the parasite is still in the tank and any new addition is vulnerable. Fish can develop an "immunity" or at least a resistance..but it is still there.

Ditto on this, just waiting for some type of stress issue to start another outbreak, and can happen years later.

 

[greenbean36191]

And a quick note on the Burgess and Matthews paper mentioned in the link above- They did not find that 82% of affected fish become immune to a second round of infections. They found that 82% of affected fish (that surive the first infection) develop resistance to reinfection. Most still harbored the parasites, but in small numbers. Very few fish developed full immunity. That means that anything that weakens their immune system can cause a new outbreak.

The strength of the resistance or immunity was also related to the severity of the initial infection. The most likely fish to develop full or very strong resistance were those with suffered the most severe infections (i.e. the ones that were most likely to die from the initial infection).

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15188395#post15188395 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by acrylic_300
If the cause is resolved the ich will resolve.

There is only one cause of ich, the ciliated protozoan parasite Cryptocaryon irritans. Nothing else is required but the presence of the parasite. If the parasite is present, the fish are infected. Just because you can't see the parasite or signs of infection visible to the human eye does not mean the fish are not infected.

 

[snorvich]

I agree with both billsreef and greenbean36192. Remember this parasite is not external.

 

[acrylic_300]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15190606#post15190606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
There is only one cause of ich, the ciliated protozoan parasite Cryptocaryon irritans. Nothing else is required but the presence of the parasite. If the parasite is present, the fish are infected. Just because you can't see the parasite or signs of infection visible to the human eye does not mean the fish are not infected.

My fish are infected, but some have not shown symptoms in over 4 years. My Hippo tang still shows limited symptoms once in a while but there is always a reason.

The symptoms can resolve without treatment.

 

[tylorarm]

I had outbreak of ich and velvet in combo about 1.5yrs ago. Had hospital tank wipeout, only two survivors. Those two were in copper for 4 wks. Left main tank fallow for 8 wks. Quaranteened all new fish, no signs of ich or anything more than 1yr running, very healthy. Did a move end of April, everyone looks great. Go on bus all last week come back and 9 of 16 dead with ich. Bit of a sprinkling of white spots on one fish prior to leaving for the week. It's still around looks like full blown ich. No new fish 1.25yrs. I did borrow some nets and buckets during the move, but i thought everything was washed prior to use. Could the prior diseases have stuck around more than 1 year with nobody showing any symptoms? Or did i intro the disease inadvertently?

 

[RBU1]

WOW Ty....Thats a tuff one. Did anything happen to the tank while you were away? Did the temp rise/fall...Anything???

Even if you introduced ich with a net or something I find it hard to believe it would wipe out your established tank with healthy fish.

That is a hard one to figure........

 

[KarlBob]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15198538#post15198538 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tylorarm
Could the prior diseases have stuck around more than 1 year with nobody showing any symptoms?

Based on everything I've read about marine ich, including what others have said in this thread, I'd say yes, the parasites were still living in the tank. The fish had gotten pretty good at resisting the parasites, so they weren't showing symptoms. Something tipped the scales in favor of the parasites while you were gone, and they overcame the fishes' resistance.

 

[tmz]

Some cysts have remained viable for as long as 72 days. Fish with partial immunity/increased resistance can host that parasite unseen in the gills ,nostrils an mouth for a long time . So , either it hung in your tank or one of the new fish brought it in and it escaped detection during qt.
I qt'd a seemingly healthy chevron tang(no other fish) for 3 1/2weeks before a vicious outbreak of ich and velvet killed it in a matter of hours while it was still in qt. Rasies the question of wether or not prophylactic treatments should be considered.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"This time I shopped until I found a smaller hippo that had been at the LFS for a couple weeks"

"Though no other fish (at the time, couple of clowns, pygmy angel, gobie, couple damsels) ever showed signs"

The answer is right in front of you.

Two possibilities not mutually exclusive.

The ick come from the tang that has been in the LPS only two weeks.

The ick remains in a tank with fish for only four months. Ick is like Russian Roulette or a pendulum. The population of ick may or may not explode for 4 months. The lifecycle of ick tells the story.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15188446#post15188446 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ohiomom
However..the parasite is still in the tank and any new addition is vulnerable. Fish can develop an "immunity" or at least a resistance..but it is still there.

I don't think an individual fish develops immunity against ick. Its ancestors over many thousands of years did.

I think immunity against ick does not increase by mere exposure and time, as does against many bacteria or viruses.

Garlic or such may deter some ick organisms perhaps, but it is not immunity.

Whether a fish develops ick symtoms when some ick organisms exist in a tank is a matter of chance based on the geometry and dilution effect, even under optimal water and nutritional conditions. Frequently, even if a fish wins a battle, it will lose the war as the next wave of attack comes in the confinement of a tank.

 

[Ohiomom]

I disagree per email with Bob Fenner will look for it..

 

[Ohiomom]

The below is my tank at that time..obviusly his advice IMO is completely reliable..

Mini outbreaks of ich SW 7/14/06
Dear Crew,
(Sandra)
First off, thank for all the info posted on the site it has proven to be a great resource. I am new to marine tanks and have learned much in the past few months. I follow the recommendations of aging the water used for water changes along with matching ph, salinity and so on and this has worked well.

(Ahh! Good)

I have also set up and used a small 10g quarantine tank (4 weeks for each addition) before introducing anything into my larger 55g.

(Ding ding ding ding... go to the head of the class)

Hopefully to become a larger tank if this is the hobby for me as I already owned this tank.
Both tanks have optimal water quality with a ph of 8.2, salinity btw 1.021 to 1.023.

(Mmm... do try to keep this a bit more steady...)

Nitrates and Nitrites in both tanks are zero as well as the ammonia levels. I do weekly water changes of about 10% on each as I said with aged water. Also, the 55g does have a SeaClone protein skimmer (which I know is not the greatest, but it truly is working very well.)

(Good)

Now for my question, in the larger 55g tank I have had two "mini" outbreaks of ich, the fish are still eating well and do not seem to be overly bothered. I guess sometimes "ich just happens".

(Uhh, no... is "caused" or perhaps better put, "allowed"... There are specific pathogen free systems. Yes, ones that are absent "crypt" entirely... Disallowing such introduction through careful quarantine, dips/baths, possibly treatments can/is done)

I am quite sure this is the issue as I have had freshwater fish for years and it looks the same in both cases.

(Do agree with you here (of course), and am much more of a/the mind that FW ich is omnipresent, or at least extremely hard to in turn "disallow" compared with the holociliate protozoan species found in seawater)

The larger tank contains:
1 Gramma
1 yellow tang
3 scarlet hermit crabs
2 turbo snails
Since the fish do not seem overly infected is there any possibility they can kick the infection on the own or will the ich get progressively worse in subsequent life cycles?

(Mmm... how to put this...? There is/can be a "balance" that is struck, even acquired immunity one can "count on" with/in time... With the current fishes "getting used" to latent, sub-clinical infestation. A/the real problem becomes either with introducing new potential hosts (fishes) or an event that strongly mal-influences the present fish livestock's impunity...)

Secondly, if I move them to the 10g tank, (so the main tank can go fallow) is it a must to treat them, or more of a watch and see situation?

(Likely would have to be treated... to maximize the possibility of eradication... However... please see my note below)

There are so many different choices that I am really unsure of what I should use in the quarantine tank.
Thirdly, do the hermit crabs and snails need to be removed also or are they not considered hosts for the bacteria?

(Invertebrates need not be removed in these situations)

Your experience has saved me a lot of time and effort and I have not had any losses since I set up the tanks about 6 months ago and would hate to start now.
Thanks again,
Sandra

(Now, if it were me/mine... and I intended to not add more fishes here, I would just leave all as is... Should you find yourself wanting to add new fish sometime down the way... I would carefully quarantine them over a month or more time using the water from the main tank... In a way "vaccinating" the new fish/es... Bob Fenner)

 

[KarlBob]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15210336#post15210336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ohiomom
The below is my tank at that time..obviusly his advice IMO is completely reliable..

Since the fish do not seem overly infected is there any possibility they can kick the infection on the own or will the ich get progressively worse in subsequent life cycles?

(Mmm... how to put this...? There is/can be a "balance" that is struck, even acquired immunity one can "count on" with/in time... With the current fishes "getting used" to latent, sub-clinical infestation. A/the real problem becomes either with introducing new potential hosts (fishes) or an event that strongly mal-influences the present fish livestock's impunity...)

Secondly, if I move them to the 10g tank, (so the main tank can go fallow) is it a must to treat them, or more of a watch and see situation?

(Likely would have to be treated... to maximize the possibility of eradication... However... please see my note below)

(Now, if it were me/mine... and I intended to not add more fishes here, I would just leave all as is... Should you find yourself wanting to add new fish sometime down the way... I would carefully quarantine them over a month or more time using the water from the main tank... In a way "vaccinating" the new fish/es... Bob Fenner)

Here's what I'm getting from Mr. Fenner's reply:
1. Individual fish can "get used" to latent, sub-clinical infestation. The fish is not immune to the parasite, and continues to host a limited number of parasites over multiple generations, but doesn't die.

2. Sometimes an event strongly mal-influences the present fish livestock's impunity. After such an event, the fish become hosts to a bunch of parasites instead of just a few, they get sick, and they may die. Nothing here about what kinds of events might cause this effect.

3. To add new fish ... carefully quarantine them over a month or more time using the water from the main tank... In a way "vaccinating" the new fish/es... Something in the water is capable of vaccinating fishes? Unless you carefully filter the water, my impression is that rather than vaccination as we know it, this would be an attempt to induce the same kind of ongoing, sub-clinical infestation in the new fish, because there are likely to be free-swimming parasites in the water on at least one day of the quarantine. On the other hand, could there be something (a protein or a hormone?) in the water that would "prepare" the fish to accept a few parasites without succumbing to the infestation?

 

[Ohiomom]

Right as I said earlier build up a resistance to the parasite..that is my point..

I chose to not treat..still have the tang..no real outbreak since..lost the gramma last year..not from disease..got a new one this year from someone elses tank and only the gramma showed a mini outbreak after quarentine. It has now been healthy for over 3 months no treatment. Between those years 5 fish have been added no issue with ich and have had most of my fish for over 2 years.