Ich treatment flaw

[nothingfishy]

I read the stickies, including the percentile chart by snorevich. I see a great flaw in the advised treatment methods. I saw in the thread the flaw questioned, but not answered.

Suppose your dt breaks out with ich. (Fish only) you live all your fish to a seperate tank, bare bottom, and run copper four weeks, ich is "gone" remove copper via water changes and carbon. You observe for another 6 weeks, no ich, all seems well.

Now your dt has been empty (fallow) for ten weeks, 100 percent ich die out. However in your qt, some of those cysts decided to hatch out and 6 weeks ( 2 weeks after copper has been extracted. The cyst makes it to the fish, copper -less in your qt.

At ten weeks, you return fish, to your ich free tank, however with the ich that hatched after the copper period.

I would think that as long as your fish, occupy that qt, copper should always be present, to account for those ich that hatch after your 28 day copper protocol.

Again, I saw it questioned, and not really answered.

Thanks

 

[snorvich]

As I mentioned elsewhere, some folks on this forum treat with copper for the entire 72 days period of time to insure no outliers make it through. Those that treat with TTM do not have the issue at all.

 

[nothingfishy]

Ok that makes total sense. I suppose
Knowing 72 days of copper is the only reliable copper treatment , ttm sounds a whole lot safer and easier.

If possible, ttm for 14 days, bleach and recycle tank, 5 to 6 weeks recycle, half the time then that of waiting ten weeks.
I suppose your live stock will determine what's easier.

In a business setting, lfs, who can't pay rent with no fish in his tank, or in a restaurant display, restarting and ttm may be the way to go

 

[Kidd Reef]

As I mentioned elsewhere, some folks on this forum treat with copper for the entire 72 days period of time to insure no outliers make it through. Those that treat with TTM do not have the issue at all.

This. also i always imagined if not doing TTM before Putting them into QT for the long run then one could do TTM after the 10 weeks and introduce them into DT after the last transfer?

 

[Kidd Reef]

Ok that makes total sense. I suppose
Knowing 72 days of copper is the only reliable copper treatment , ttm sounds a whole lot safer and easier.

If possible, ttm for 14 days, bleach and recycle tank, 5 to 6 weeks recycle, half the time then that of waiting ten weeks.
I suppose your live stock will determine what's easier.

In a business setting, lfs, who can't pay rent with no fish in his tank, or in a restaurant display, restarting and ttm may be the way to go

Unfortunately thats easier said than done for alot of LFS theres alot of shared Systems/Equipment. Proper quarantine procedures for a business with that kind of stock rotation is highly unfeasible. All it takes is one slip it for most of the systems to become infected even without the owner or employee knowledge, Add in the fact alot of vendors run low doses of copper in their system and the fact that ich can be present without showing symptoms in an otherwise healthy fish and well..you just gotta chalk it up to the game and take proper QT into your own hands.

 

[snorvich]

This. also i always imagined if not doing TTM before Putting them into QT for the long run then one could do TTM after the 10 weeks and introduce them into DT after the last transfer?

One could do that. The display tank, having been fallow, will not have ich. The fish, having gone through TTM, will not have ich.

 

[HumbleFish]

Treat with copper (or CP) for 30 days, and then transfer the fish to another QT (think of it as a one time tank transfer.) Any ich should be left behind in the original QT. Observe to see if symptoms return in the "new" QT for the next 42 days. IMO; that's a better alternative than exposing a fish to copper poison for 72 straight days.

 

[ThRoewer]

Treat with copper (or CP) for 30 days, and then transfer the fish to another QT (think of it as a one time tank transfer.) Any ich should be left behind in the original QT. Observe to see if symptoms return in the "new" QT for the next 42 days. IMO; that's a better alternative than exposing a fish to copper poison for 72 straight days.

This^^

Though if I would want to go sure my fish are ich free I would do TTM at hyposaline condition. That way you have a combination of two reliable methods that support each other. On top of that you get your fish clean in less than half the time copper would need and you don't have to expose them to any toxic substances.

As for LFS doing QT and TTM - the required equipment and manpower makes this pretty much prohibitive. Keep in mind that many LFS get new fish weekly. Just for TTM that means you would need at a minimum 2 TTM systems capable of holding a lot of fish which can't go in one tank together. And TTM by itself would just take care of the least concerning of all possible parasites: Cryptocaryon. You would need to add dips against Amyloodinium and Brooklynella and also dose Prazi against flukes and intestinal parasites for it to make any sense.
To execute this you need a dedicated room with at least 4 racks of tanks. You likely would also need one dedicated worker to execute it.
Unfortunately it is more economic to let the fish fight it out by themselves and tax-deduct the losses.

 

[HumbleFish]

Theoretically, the fish should only need to spend two weeks in copper/CP before being transferred to another QT. Otherwise how would TTM be considered effective clearing a fish of ich in just 13 days if the trophonts remained on the fish for longer than that?

The key is understanding that copper/CP is "the shield" protecting your fish from reinfection. The 14 day countdown doesn't begin until "the shield" reaches therapeutic levels. In addition, therapeutic levels must be maintained at all times during the two week period.

After two weeks, you transfer the fish to another QT - just as you would when implementing tank transfer method. You also need to be sure QT #2 is at least 10 feet away from QT #1 to take aerosol transmission into account.

You DO NOT lower "the shield" by running carbon, UV prior to transferring. Transfer the fish to QT #2 while therapeutic levels are still in place in QT #1. "The shield" will protect the fish by eradicating any free swimmers before they can attach to your fish.

QT #2 should be a chemical free environment upon transferring the fish. However, moving forward you can use it to treat with Prazipro or some other medication(s) if you like.

 

[snorvich]

Theoretically, the fish should only need to spend two weeks in copper/CP before being transferred to another QT. Otherwise how would TTM be considered effective clearing a fish of ich in just 13 days if the trophonts remained on the fish for longer than that?

The key is understanding that copper/CP is "the shield" protecting your fish from reinfection. The 14 day countdown doesn't begin until "the shield" reaches therapeutic levels. In addition, therapeutic levels must be maintained at all times during the two week period.

After two weeks, you transfer the fish to another QT - just as you would when implementing tank transfer method. You also need to be sure QT #2 is at least 10 feet away from QT #1 to take aerosol transmission into account.

You DO NOT lower "the shield" by running carbon, UV prior to transferring. Transfer the fish to QT #2 while therapeutic levels are still in place in QT #1. "The shield" will protect the fish by eradicating any free swimmers before they can attach to your fish.

QT #2 should be a chemical free environment upon transferring the fish. However, moving forward you can use it to treat with Prazipro or some other medication(s) if you like.

I don't totally agree. That assumes CP or copper do not affect the rate of progression in the first part of the life cycle. Evidence that this may be the case is how a low level of copper affects the masking of parasites. But since they are your fish, "you pays your money, you take your chances". I'll stick with tank transfer to eliminate ich.