Ich treatment for anyone who wants their fish to live

[PhillyD123]

Do you take your dog to a vet? If you answered no you might want ot consider it they spent years of their life specifically training in how to treat your animal. The downfall is you have to pay for their training. Doctors are the same way bud. I also failed to mention that Chemo' (not "Kimo")lowers your life expectancy to a few years if it works because it nukes EVERYTHING which is why you have no hair at all. What do you think Copper does? it is chemo' for fish same with malachite I am simply saying you are taking something allready weak and making it weaker. Does that make sense to you. It sure does not to me. There are more types of cancer then I could name guess what they are still cancer. Clearly I offended you but instead of attacking the medical field which does not offend me it simply does not make sense. Stop and think Allicin is also reputed to have antibiotic properties and they are testing right now on humans. If you choose to butcher your fish it is your choice.

 

[triggerfish1976]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10309905#post10309905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PhillyD123
I also failed to mention that Chemo' (not "Kimo")lowers your life expectancy to a few years if it works because it nukes EVERYTHING which is why you have no hair at all. What do you think Copper does?

I don't know, the last time I checked living was better than losing a couple of years off of the tail end of ones life weather it is a person or a fish.

 

[ArgonDreams]

Wow just wow.

Freshwater dips, Copper treatments and quarantines along with lowering the salinity are all comparable to bleeding someone out. Especially since Ich is usaully brought on by stress. Gee lets stress the fish out more it will get better. Stop one of the stages in the life cycle of Ich and boost the fishes natural immune system. Not a scorched earth/water policy

This is a scare tactic and garbage science at best. You offer a lot on innuendo in your posts and absolutely nothing to back up your claims. Let me dissect what you have said:

Any environmental change is going to stress out the fish again any hypo copper kills everything it is not something I would go near lets compare it to Chemo. Quarantine is headed in the right direction but taking something out of its living space and placing it in a new bare bones is going to stress/weaken the fish too. Not nearly as bad as the other common methods. Boost the immune system and break the "Ich" lifecycle. There are multiple stages all you have to do is keep your fish alive long enough for it to run its course. "Ich" is not like a bacterial infection. You can not throw a pill at it and it will disappear. It is more like a virus let it run its course and be fought off. Breaking the life cycle is the key

Again no scientific basis for this statement. Breaking the life cycle will certainly kill a parasite, but you offer little in the way of help or method to replace these methods.

And yes, Parasites ARE affected by medications (It's NOT a virus like you suggest), this will interrupt the life cycle. However you are advocating boosting the immune system through garlic and letting them fight it off on their own. Would you prescribe that to a human patient that had a parasitic infection? I think not. Heck, I know for a fact you would likely be out on your rear if you did in most medical organizations.

I would not quarintine but it breaks the cycle so it is effective and probably a good idea but you are putting stress on something weak. You tell me if that is a good idea. Boost your nutrients vitamins and minerals also. It helps strengthen the fish. There is also a theory that it sends the "Ich" Back into hiding but until; I have seen complete proof I will take it with a grain of salt. For the record if I wanted to fight I would do another cage match. And also I am not talking out of my rear simply offering the soundest advice possible with "Science" to back me.

Again, what are you suggesting? I have only seen "garlic" and boost it's "vitamins". Where is your peer reviewed study? Where is the science? I don't see anything here that suggests that using Copper, Hypo Salinity and QT is either unethical or amoral treatments.

In fact Ionic Copper is being used in human medicine for Arthritic treatments. And referring to dissimilar treatments to "bloodletting", "chemo therapy" "Cancer" is a scare tactic and poor argument for your cause. Come back with bonofide facts please.

 

[luke33]

Its an easy subject to fool around in. Here's what works. Hypo and copper. If you have to treat your display, take out all your inverts and LR and put them in a rubbermaid and hypo in your display.....only if you have to. The prefered method being in your QT with hypo or copper.

Here's another fact......FW dips do nothing put stress out your fish bigtime. There have been tests with ick on fish in FW and it has lived for over 10hrs when imbedded. So i would suggest your Dr pal, or pre med student at best to study a bit harder.

 

[szwab]

[flamealert]

 

[PhillyD123]

Thank you for that like I stated earlier I am not here to fight it does irritate me when I hear about copper and all the others I again I say I and my fellow hobbyists cringe at being preached with no one offering alternative methods. The personal attacks are quite comical to me if I wished to duke it out with someone I would walk into a bar like I have done in the past and tell somone they are an idiot. The fact that people are choosing to attack me instead of my thoughts other than when I disagree with age old tactics should tell people that may agree with my tactics there is probably some credibility. I am not hinting at anything it is unfortunate that I am being misheard. I have said time and again I reccomend a low stress natural way of combating a man made problem. Allicin the easiest way to acquire this is garlic which also stimulates the appetite (Something people and fish both lose when ill.) And not stirring up anything else. Nature gave fish cleaners IE neon gobies and cleaner shrimp. I have a friend that used copper one time lost his fish and chose a more passive approach fifteen years ago Garlic and not stressing the environment. He is one of the most succesful reef keeepers I have ever come across. He has not lost a fish since I could ramble off the research word for word if people really insist but I prefer laymans terms not everyone speaks latin. For those of you who aattack me please cease and desist if you disagree with my points then let us share our knowledge attacking me is quite comical It is easy to attack a person over a computer. If I truly offend you so badly head up to my neck of the woods and we will work it out over a beer. To get in somones face takes alot more courage. I really do not like to fight I have done far to much of it in my lifetime and have the scars and experince to prove it. I realize me suggesting alternatives and pointing out the downfalls of the "Usual treatments" may come across offensive because they have worked for you but at what cost? Maybe some maybe none. I merely Offer a different outlook. If I may I know more about the human body than most. Treating people is easy they tell you all the symptoms you can suggest bedrest and treat the person as a whole. Treating fish is far different you are making shots in the dark. Putting it plainly copper is a poison. The ocean does not change in salinity therefore fish are not used to it. Malachite I will not even bother. I do not think Ich is a virus I know full well what it is. Read that post again with an open mind and you will hear what I am saying not what you want to hear. I am saying you can not Compare it to a bacterial infection and throw some pills/medications at it and make it go away. It is Comparable again comparable to a viral infection which require full care. That is what i was trying to say it is unfortunate I am misinterpreted so much. My final note Garlic unless you have access to a chem lab. A stable consistent environment and helpers Cleaner goby and cleaner shrimp safe natural, non destructive and barring the offense to the nasal passages risk free. 87.2% of bacterial infections can be fought off by the human body alone. Let your fish do the same. and the cold hard truth is I may be right or I might be wrong I have a background that puts me at an advantage with sickness. So I offer another viewpoint. Retired Corpman (Combat medic), ex nurse Phillip

 

[MMJ]

Okay, so for the admitted novice, what do you do if you have a sick fish (ich or crypt) and you can't QT b/c you have a reef tank - -can't catch the thing b/c it hides in the rocks and you have too many corals/inverts and live rock to remove from the tank? I just had an epidemic and lost a few fish. (Of course the guys that set up my tank and were supposed to service it were MIA and of no help!)

 

[luke33]

MMJ, just try to keep them well fed and have a few cleaner shrimp in there. If they are super healthy, they may build up an immunity for ick, if not, they will die.

 

[szwab]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10316679#post10316679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MMJ
Okay, so for the admitted novice, what do you do if you have a sick fish (ich or crypt) and you can't QT b/c you have a reef tank - -can't catch the thing b/c it hides in the rocks and you have too many corals/inverts and live rock to remove from the tank? I just had an epidemic and lost a few fish. (Of course the guys that set up my tank and were supposed to service it were MIA and of no help!)

in addition to the above posts. I say I have no proof scientifically, but I have found that a moon light or an ambient light in the room during the "lights out" period of the tank helps. I believe this is because it helps reduce stress in the night time hours. Again no proof it just seems to work for me. I also feel that using a QT tank prior to the introduction into the tank is helpful to head off potential problems or pests/hitchhikers to avoid introducing them into my display tank.

 

[gobiefish]

I read somewhere on studies done on ich that it may be a photoperiod parisite and that leaving the lights on may breake the life cycle due to the ich parisites finding thier way back to the fish host while they are resting in the dark.I'm not really sure what the lighting period was something like leave your lights on for 24 hours and then cover your tank and put it in total darkness for 24 hours and repeat several times supousdly this confused and disrupted it's life cycle . and there wasn't much research after that. Also don't forget the cleaner wrasse's they are less prone to getting ich but a harder fish to keep. I know that when a miricale cure comes along for ich that is 100% reef safe and non toxic the fish diseas section will change darasticly ,but to get there we as reef hobbiest need to keep moving forwards not backwards and to do it wich means opening our minds to new ideas even if we don't agree with someone elses ideas . Take a long step back and look at the marine aquarium hobby in the late 60's early 70's. we are doing a lot of things today they couldn't back then and that comes from going forward .Think of all the trial and error it took to get ware we are today and all the fish butcherd and lost over new ideas and one minded oppinions.But we are ware we are because of that!!!!!! Me I'm 100% for going forward with new ideas and as naturally as possible!!!!!

 

[Freed]

Philly, do you realize how ridiculous you are making yourself out to be? Do you realize how much of a fool you are making out of yourself? Please do more research on crypt and study it for a while and then come back and at least make it look as though you are educated about it and its treatments. WOW all I can do is laugh about you right now. :lol:

 

[ArgonDreams]

I stand by my statements.

I still feel you provided little in the way of proof, and a lot in scare tactics and innuendo. I apologize if you consider that a personal attack, but I stand by my first statement.

In your first posts, I never did see an alternative to copper and hypo-salinity treatments other then a vague mention of your friend and garlic. This certainly doesn't tell me anything, nor is it scientific in nature.

Additionally, I did take issue with your drawing relations between dissimilar items and calling them the same. Cancer and parasites and viruses and bacteria are not the same and can not even be considered or treated the same. Ich is a parasite plain and simple and will respond to chemicals, immune systems and water changes. Any of these will work depending on your situation. Copper in appropriate levels does damage free floating cysts and can affect a cure by this method. As with other human and fish medication it's a harsh chemical that needs to be dosed properly or damage to the fish/human will result. This is neither "bloodletting" or "barbaric" but "pharmacology". Additionally other methods are known to produce excellent results, such as garlic, although garlic has it's issues too(See link below).

Garlic and Ich

Garlic and it's usefulness

The reason I take issue with your post (and not you personally) is that you suggest throwing out proven methods that have been studied for both effectiveness and husbandry purposes and offering nothing but vague mentions of other methods that your "friend" uses. Additionally, you call into question the ethical means of these methods and therefore the people that use them and give no real basis for this claim.

Hence: I question the validity of what you say and the method you say it, and will wait until real science is out on the subject.

 

[PhillyD123]

Freed you are completely missing the point. Clearly you do not read well dissapointing. What have I said about alternative treatments One and only one regimen in particular is all I have mentioned would you like me to jot down a bundle of latin so that you and every other member of this forum but perhaps five will full understand. If I truly cared about your opinion about me personally hm wait I don't. Tell me what you disagree with tell me why. You are a rumour buster an expert. (Albeit apperantly an aroggant pompous... noThat is how you came acrossI will give you the benefit of the doubt) Tell me where I went wrong. It is sad that a few people such as yourself having hours to plan your assualt on me Do not even talk about the Hm the whole point behind my topics. I am stating what should be common sense weaken the fish to make him well does not make sense to me if it does to you that is well and good for you. Trying to make me feel or look like a fool gets you nowhere. In fact I would imagine the expert not saying a word about the subject makes them lose any and all credibility I know it does to me. If treating with allicin and letting your fish stay in an environment that they are accustomed to and comfortable in rather than stress them out is truly a bad idea tell me why? If adding natural assistance IE Cleaner shrimp neon gobies is really dumb then tell me why O' mighty expert. I have no need to reserach "Ich" I know plenty am I claiming to be an expert no and anyone without A doctorate who does should feel like a fool perhaps. Especially one in the Auto industry. Hello healthcare helping living things get better. Building cars and healing and do not go hand in hand. Rookie maybe idot not by along shot. And when an uneduacted attack like that comes like that. Yeah Back when I carried an A 2 a Kbar and was in a squad to save peoples rears I may have lowered myself to pathetic levels like that. Then I grew up. quite a few have attacked me which is shear cowardice leave the fighting to the soldiers and tell me your findings fellow ammature. Which yes that is what we all are cold harsh truth. Placing yourself in a selfordained position of power simply because of experience and not TRAINING Tells me far more than is needed.Taht being said AS a final offer come to my neck of the woods if you wish to fight me after I have bounced your head off a brick wall for a while I am sure it will Leave your system. I despise violence but if you really wish to fight I guess I can accommodate your appearant need. I am not here to do battle. SO if you really don't like what I am saying how about in a manner that is more mature than a school child you tell me your findings.

 

[Freed]

You just restated my point. I have done nothing to make you sound like a fool though it has been you doing all the talking and doing it to yourself.

 

[PhillyD123]

Truly what do you disagree with?

 

[PhillyD123]

Is it the low stress ?
Is it the Allicin? Ignore anything inflammatory and Answer my question you must disagree with something.

 

[PhillyD123]

Come now whether or not you like me or not does not mean jack what in my treatment regimen do you disagree with?

 

[Freed]

Oh no, not gonna argue with your profound "wisdom".

 

[PhillyD123]

Don't know if you noticed go back and read bud. I attacked treatments. And gave Laymans terms and explanations. People ignored that and went for me I returned fire. Would you me to dig through my stuff and find the old medical journal stating the findings on allicin. I chose not to because unless you went to school for that profession it will be wothless. Laymans terms. For common people. It is worthless otherwise. Step up or shut up their is the corp talking again. However I will not delete but because it needs said

 

[PhillyD123]

Don't know if you noticed go back and read bud. I attacked treatments. And gave Laymans terms and explanations. People ignored that and went for me I returned fire. Would you like me to dig through my stuff and find the old medical journal stating the findings on allicin then go online and download a small novel to post ? Seriously I chose not to because I assume people know what "Ich" Is unless you went to school for that profession it will be wothless. Laymans terms. For common people. It is worthless otherwise. Step up or shut up their is the corp talking again. However I will not delete it because it needs said