Ideal Sump Design?

[Grizzle]

I have a 180 gallon DT with a poorly designed too small sump under it. I can barely get the skimmer out to clean it! My wife okayed me using the room directly behind the tank as an aquarium room.

I really would appreciate any suggestions on a sump design. Number of chambers and how it should ideally be laid out!

How big should I make it... wondering about an algae scrubber. I am currently running filter socks but would just as soon no longer use them as they can be a PIA.

I run a Super Reef Octopus 3000 INT, a couple of heaters and a couple of pumps for GFO/Carbon and Bio Pellets.

 

[uncleof6]

I have a 180 gallon DT with a poorly designed too small sump under it. I can barely get the skimmer out to clean it! My wife okayed me using the room directly behind the tank as an aquarium room.

I really would appreciate any suggestions on a sump design. Number of chambers and how it should ideally be laid out!

How big should I make it... wondering about an algae scrubber. I am currently running filter socks but would just as soon no longer use them as they can be a PIA.

I run a Super Reef Octopus 3000 INT, a couple of heaters and a couple of pumps for GFO/Carbon and Bio Pellets.

Something like this, as big as will fit under the tank. Going into the next room is a waste of time, money, and energy. 300 gallon tank, now we are talking an aquarium room would be in order.

While you getting rid of the socks, get rid of the bio-pellets, and the GFO. Both are unnecessary complications, the bio-pellets a rather dubious notion. Algae scrubbers are a waste as well.

A 180 is normally a pretty good sized tank, though there are lousy footprint 180s as well. A good bucket DSB, (no service/maintenance required period) and you are good to go with the skimmer, and perhaps some GAC. Don't need a fuge in the sump either, so more room under the tank for a bucket DSB.

 

[Grizzle]

I don't know but the thought of using part of a room to hold all the various aquarium supplies, 2 QT tanks, tank transfer tubs etc is pretty appealing to me. The current sump needs to be replaced one way or another.

I have used a big rubbermaid tub for a sump in a tank I had quite a few years ago but I am sure there is better ways to go.

As to whether GFO, Bio pellet, algae scrubbers are a waste of time each to their own but that debate is for another thread.

 

[karimwassef]

You will get as many views on what's optimal as there are members... There's no such thing.
Here's my biased view:
1. Make it as big as possible (even comparable to the DT)
2. Make it wide enough to reduce the speed through it
3. Keep enough room over it to have access to all corners of all sections.
4. I don't buy into the middle section return with the third stage being out of the main flow (DSB maybe). I like the straight three stage with a DSB, fuge, and scrubber in the middle.
5. In terms of your use of GFO, DSB, fuge, algae scrubber, etc... That depends on your nutrient creation habits. Are you a heavy feeder? Are you trying to run a very low nutrient system? Without more about your needs, those decisions can't be made.
6. Socks are a crutch ... But make sure to contain any potential for salt spray with covers.

This is my personal success scenario.

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

I don't care for sump-fuge all in ones, but that is the way to do it if you don't want a seperate fuge tank. There is a better drain side design: water first empties from the tank to a tray with two (large tank) holes that hold filter socks. Water filters through this to the skimmer section. This is a far better design than any others I have seen. I have my skimmer section made with a raised floor set for cup clearance. My Octo runs best in a specific water level 6.5"? (too lazy to measure) if I set my wiers that low then my sump would run less volume and have less leeway if an ATO failure occurs.

 

[nuxx]

I'm going with something like uncleof6 posted.

The Skimmer and Fuge of each side of the return is a popular design.

On our big tank we have 5 chambers in a 200 gallon sump. The water goes through it VERY slow and the water height is as high as possible. Goes drains | skimmer | fuge | rock/ceramic | return. Not my favorite design, but I'm stuck with it...

We're having a 150 Gallon Frag Tank built right now and we're going to convert a standard 75 gallon tank into it's sump. Was able to get it for $150 new from Petsmart.

The 75 should be great for your 180, it's a nice mix of length, width and height as well...

 

[Lavoisier]

Something like this, as big as will fit under the tank. Going into the next room is a waste of time, money, and energy. 300 gallon tank, now we are talking an aquarium room would be in order.

Algae scrubbers are a waste as well.

I cannot disagree with this statement more!! i've found ATS to be a practical, sensible way to export nutrients. In my build, the ATS was a fundemental component to eliminating GHA from my DT. Uncle, can you explain your thought please?!

 

[AdamPLawrence]

If you have a fuge growing Chaeto why would you need a scrubber as well??

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

Something of this sort is a much improved first chamber:

 

[uncleof6]

Why use a method that is antiquated and was abandoned many years ago, and resurfaced as new and improved which it was/is not? Just a rehashing of what was rejected long ago. It was not just hobbyists that rejected it, rather large public aquariums that rejected it, such as the Smithsonian, as well. Considering a bucket DSB will control and eliminate GHA from your system, it makes little sense to use a method that involves maintenance, with a historically notorious flop record, and/or a media that requires replacement.

The only method that has survived the passage of time, through fads, and snake oil, is the DSB in all its forms. Not trying to be offensive about it, however, how ever were we able to keep GHA out of our systems, if the ATS was all that? How were we able to keep GHA out of our systems when no one cared about phosphates? These things are all fads, they go in and out of style, about as often as folks switch tanks, it seems. What will remain, is bio-diversity, "live rock" (true live rock,) DSBs, (real live sand; plenum systems, with DSB; bucket DSB) skimmer, and carbon. After that it is called good husbandry. It is the latter wherein lies a great deal of the problem. Folks are looking for a miracle pill, instead of learning what makes these systems tick.

 

[uncleof6]

If you have a fuge growing Chaeto why would you need a scrubber as well??

Chaeto is not all that great really, and we place too much stock in tiny in-sump "fuges." However, there are less problematic methods that are what made this hobby possible, that do the job very nicely, if folks take the time to learn the right way.

 

[AdamPLawrence]

But aren't there issues with DSBs as well? ie keeping them stocked, disturbing them may release nitrate? I'm setting up a small tank at the moment and I'm trying to figure out what method I want for the substrate: deep, shallow, or bare.

 

[uncleof6]

But aren't there issues with DSBs as well? ie keeping them stocked, disturbing them may release nitrate? I'm setting up a small tank at the moment and I'm trying to figure out what method I want for the substrate: deep, shallow, or bare.

There are not issues with DSBs. That is the great myth: There are issues with DSBs. It is a bad wrap because the hobbyist makes mistakes. The hobby is very resistant to the notion that there is only one way to do something: The right way.

The issue is with the husbandry, not the DSB. If you disturb it, you interfere with the process, and your nitrate just might rise, but that does not make it a "nutrient" sink as the myth goes. Another common detraction is: "they are a mess, just look at it." They are referring to the layer of algae on the glass around the DSB. It is due to ambient light, but a healthy DSB is clean! The algae is on the glass only.

It starts with the seeding and maturation of the DSB, which can take 3 - 4 months, (it requires patience: an attribute sorely absent from this hobby,) if the DSB is critter based. A bucket DSB is fill a bucket with sand, run good flow over the top of it, keep the crud out of it, and forget it. It kicks in after a month or so, and drops your nitrates to near zero, (nitrates never hit zero, that is a myth as well.) No maintenance required, no light, no food, nicht, nada.

 

[tkeracer619]

The issue is with the husbandry, not the DSB.

They sure will compensate for a lack of husbandry, at least for a while, but it eventually catches up to you. Most DSB aren't deep enough and get loaded with nutrients then the method gets blamed.

 

[uncleof6]

They sure will compensate for a lack of husbandry, at least for a while, but it eventually catches up to you. Most DSB aren't deep enough and get loaded with nutrients then the method gets blamed.

Well how "loaded with nutrients" they really get is a very obtuse question, with nothing really factual on which to make a guess, other than rumors. The chemistry of marine systems is so complex that even the results of the tests commonly done don't tell us a great deal, the "my parameters are fine" is a myth also.

I have many running (anecdote coming here) I don't see a correlation between DSBs and nutrient sinks. I spent a lot of time developing my seed stock, which dates back to the very early 80's (ancestral roots.) We know that if they are done wrong, there is going to be trouble. If the grain size is too large, and/or the populations insufficient, particulates will get deep into the bed, and you are done.

On the other hand, a healthy DSB thrives on particulates every bit as much as dissolved organics. But as far as compensating for lack of husbandry, they don't. Nothing in the system compensates for lack of husbandry. No matter what the current marketing hype might be.

The interesting part is most detractors of DSBs have never run one, and don't know how to go about it, and to a great extent those that did and failed didn't go about it the right way. Alot of folks come "after" me on the ATS thing, or even black box denitrators (generic term,) "well you didn't do it right." OK that is great, "we" (collective) invented the things (for hobby use) years ago, and our successes, failures, and learning, are what built this hobby from nothing but failures. What has endured all the fads, marketing hype, what have you, are the live rock (the real stuff,) sand, skimmer, and carbon. That does not mean there is nothing left to learn: we know far less about these micro ecosystems, than what we don't know.

 

[1234]

 

[nuxx]

After I hypoed the display and removed the CUC, we started to get some bad hair algae growth.

I started dosing Vodka a few weeks ago and the nitrates have dropped off from 5-10ish to around 0.

Also the hair algae has become lighter in color and seems to have lost it's "grip" on the rocks, it's really easy to get off now.

I bought an Algae Mower Vac and will try to remove the excess algae off the rocks over the next week.

After that I'll keep the vodka dosage where it is for a week or two, and if no new algae pops up, I'll half the dosage.

Just an idea

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

Turf scrubbers are time proven; longer than Dr. Ron started promoting DSB's. Few ever followed Dr. shmek's design. One of the best methods is one seldom used, but reccommended by UH's extension service (I believe they have invested a wee bit in marine research) is a remote reverse gravel filter. I know someone here who uses his own reverse design successfully for longer than many here have been alive. My problem with turf scrubbers has been operating cost vs running a good quality skimmer; IMO the wattage to properly run a turf scrubbers doesn't Payoff compared to the simplicity of current skimmers. A few years ago perhaps yes, but today mid range skimmers not only run more energy efficiently, but do a great job. Hats off to those who invest in a less violent more diverse filtration method.

If ideal sump design included more than simply the mechanical aspect of filtration, then employing as many methods as one can certainly would lead to a more complete marine system. Since the op stated 'ideal' my ideal plan would use (and does) several techniques: a reverse up flow system as per UH's design becomes a cryptic fuge; an ats feeding a tradition lighted fuge running through a true deep sand bed made up of undisturbed super fines. Then there is a purely mechanical sump for heating, top off, chemical filtration and supplying water to the whole system, therefore, the design includes easy to fill mixing and top off reservoirs. I'm sure there is more. This all is beyond the limitations most can afford either financially or spatially. Luckily, we can do pretty well simply with a steady hand the basic mechanical components and the good fortune to keep Murphy away.

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

I'd like adding that I hate filter socks, they seine, but for a needle wheel to function smoothly it needs to remain free of debris, therefore, filtering the water that is directed to the skimmer is better if it's first run through a sock

 

[CuzzA]

I can share with you my plan to give you some ideas.

I have a 300 gallon tank 96x30x24 being built as I type this. My sump is a Deep Blue 80 gallon rimless frag tank (48x24x16). It will be a simple two chamber Berlin design (skimmer, manifold pump and heater in one chamber and 2x return pumps in the other (redundancy) with a 3x glass baffle bubble trap separating the chambers. I will be rotating filter bags daily to reduce/eliminate the build up of detritus within the sump and most importantly to eliminate any detritus entering the manifold pump. I already rotate socks daily and I don't find it a chore. It's just part of my daily routine. Feed, check sump and systems, rotate bag. The new system will have space for a used filter bag container so no more moving the container from the garage to the tank every day. That aspect is what makes it a little bit of a chore.

From the manifold pump it will supply water to 2x 20 gallon high tanks (24x12x16 on 2x4 risers making the total footprint approximately 24x24). The manifold pump will also supply other reactors, uv, frag tank, etc. One tank will be a cryptic fuge with the main goal of pod reproduction and secondary goal of allowing sponges, etc to naturally filter water. Through my research of natural cryptic zones deep within reef structures the water flows from the bottom up. So to achieve this I'll make 2x submerged spray bars on the bottom of the tank on both sides flowing toward the center rock structure and up. The spray bars will not be covered by rock as I want access for removal and cleaning. Ultimately the water will flow through a bulkhead back into the sump with an emergency drain in the event the main drain becomes clogged. I'll also have a dry float switch to alert me of a clog via my Apex.

The second 20 gallon high tank will be a deep sand bed and will also have a spray bar at the top to evenly push water across the sand eliminating any detritus from settling. It too will have the double drain and float switch just like the cryptic fuge.

I came to the conclusion that this will be the most maintenance free and optimal filtration setup.

While I don't have a fish room, I do have a fish closet directly behind the tank with an adjacent bathroom for water supply and drain to the city sewer. In this closet I will keep a sealed/vented (to reduce evaporation) 110 gallon tank for storing collected natural seawater (benefits of living on the coast of Florida) for an automatic batch water changer, 3 gallons per day. This tank will be filtered by DE powder and carbon through a Magnum 350 and a UV sterilizer.

I'll also keep 2x 20 gallon poly tanks in there. One will be a still kalk ATO reservoir. The other will be a freshwater ATO for a 10 gallon QT and auto skimmer wash down. It will also be used to manually top off the 110 if needed.

This closet will also house 2x modified BRS dual reactors. One carbon only and the other gfo only. The goal here is to easily not replace all of the media at once resulting in shock to the system. The closet will also contain 2x 2 part reservoirs and dosing pumps and I have a bio pellet reactor in the event I find I need to carbon dose due to my expected high bio load.

The final major component of my system will be an automatic decapped live artemia reactor/feeder and a phytoplankton reactor feeding the artemia. I'm still working out the details, but through the use of my Apex, gravity, air pump, and small water pump I hope to achieve a constant supply of live artemia, which research shows is one of the best foods for both coral and fish. The reactors design will be based on a design Reefworks had a few years ago. The challenge will be getting the artemia to the bottom of the display. I'll likely route small diameter tubing along a back corner of the tank, beneath the sand bed and ultimately coming out of a rock or barnacle. I'll use a separate small pump to continuously feed display tank water through the tube so it clears any pods trapped when the other water supply stops the feeding process.

That's all I got for now. I know it's little more info than you had requested, but I had some free time and thought I would share.