Ideal temp swing

[LobsterOfJustice]

Hey all,

So for most people, the temp swing their tank experiences is within the limits of their control of their system. But lets say you hypothetically have the control to allow as little or as much temp swing as you want. Is a completely stable temperature ideal, or even natural? If we have a system in which we have complete control, should we allow for a small swing between day and night? How much is ideal, and how quickly should temps change?

 

[FlipToast]

With the exception of a few more delicate animals,intentional temp swings may cause the corals to be less susceptible to accidental temp swings in the future. Slowly increase the temperature difference you expect to achieve until your corals start looking sad, then you'll know for sure

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

That's what I've heard (although it seems anecdotal). And I'd like to avoid the experimental part and ****ing off my corals, that's why I was wondering if anyone had already determined what seemed to be an ideal swing. Or what type of swings reefs in nature typically experience. I majored in Marine Bio so you'd think I should know this, but I don't.

 

[LouH]

With the exception of a few more delicate animals,intentional temp swings may cause the corals to be less susceptible to accidental temp swings in the future. Slowly increase the temperature difference you expect to achieve until your corals start looking sad, then you'll know for sure

That sounds like a good concept. Is there any info out there that supports this?

FWIW, I control my tank's temperature with an Apex controller, and it keeps temperatures between 79.5 and 80.1 consistently. The controller actually has a seasonal temperature change program, but I don't use it. I also run a redundant temperature controller which is programmed with cooler and hotter setpoints than the Apex. It comes on when the appliances run by the Apex can't hold temperature in range. When we had several weeks of 100 degree + weather last month, both systems ran cooling hardware for several hours daily because my home's AC couldn't keep house temps below 82 degrees.

Hopefully some subject matter experts hop on this thread. This is a good topic.

 

[houstonhobby]

Pick your favorite bay that you know has good coral growth (from snorkeling) and find the data on its daily temperature swing.

I know that in freshwater, the smaller the swing the more species you will find in residence. I can't believe that the ocean would be different

My tanks are controlled by the ambient temperature of the room. They stay at 27 C. It is a little hot for me personally but good for the tanks.

I don't worry about accidental temp swings. I have a generator that kicks on if I lose line power for more than 30 seconds.

If you have enough money for this shockingly expensive hobby then you can afford a power supply

 

[FlipToast]

I've read about other people who unintentionally let their water temp swing, including myself.

My reef and frag system are in an enclosed porch. No a/c and no heat...in indiana my reefkeeper tells me it goes from 79.1-82 throughout the day.

Xenia is more delicate to temp swings than my huge flowerpot, which is supposed to be much more delicate...which mine has only grown.

Certain corals do live pretty much out of the water for 8hrs a day in low tide. The ambient temp of the tropics is certainly hotter than the ocean. Corals have a way of putting up with that. They don't get acclimated back to ocean temp when the tide gets back. God just dunks them like a clown at a carnival.

Another thing I read that was that frags taken in captive systems will grow hardier than the mother colony, so you could frag all your corals and put them in a fluctuating tank and train them to be even hardier.

There is data out there, I'm sure of that..I just go off what I've experienced or remember from others. I see about 15-30 tanks a month for my job each with its own parameter swings. Out of all the things I saw that killed stuff, ORP seemed to be the most impactive

 

[sirreal63]

Here is an article that may help...written by one of the people who actually study this, he is also a member here, McSaxmaster.


http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/...eat-temperature-debate-part-1-chris-jury.html

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/82353-great-temperature-debate-part-ii.html

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/93637-great-temperature-debate-part-iii.html

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/100587-great-temperature-debate-part-iv.html

If you would like more information, do an advanced search on user greenbean36191 and use temp as the keyword, he has also spent years studying this. Temp swings are very natural and corals have lived with them and there is also some evidence that some creatures rely on them. What we do in trying to keep a steady temp is very unnatural and in some cases can be detrimental.

 

[iced98lx]

Well. well... I can say conclusively that swinging to 101 degrees is bad.

Other than that...

 

[ptreef]

I see about a 3 degree ~77-80 temp swing in summer on my tank
sometimes as high as 81 if AC is off....so a 4* temp swing
Contemplating a chiller to keep it at a 3* max swing as fans are not enuf!

I see like a 2 degree in winter...76.5-79

I have yet to see any issues. I too feel keeping a 2 or 3 degree daily swing keeps corals more adapt to an occasional temp mis-hap as long as not to extreme!

 

[sirreal63]

Most definitely! Corals begin to stress when temps get as little as two degrees outside of their normal, acclimated range. If your tank has a daily swing of 77-83 it is no big deal, the corals are acclimated to that swing, but say you lose electricity and the temp goes up to 87, now you can have issues. If it goes to 101, bad news. The other factor here is time, the longer the temp stays out of the normal range, the greater likelihood of harm.

The biggest danger is in using a chiller to keep the temp from varying at all. Keeping the tank at one temp all the time is bad because someday something will happen to cause issues. Lose electricity, have a heater stick, chiller malfunction and suddenly you have a tank full of corals that have have no acclimation to a temp swing. The damage is more probably because they have adapted to a no temp change scenario and now the temp is changing. Allowing a normal fluctuation of temps is an insurance policy. The corals are adapted to it so when something happens that brings them outside of their normal range, they are more able to handle it, they go through a temp variation daily.

We tend to keep our tanks much cooler than the majority of the corals in nature experience. I run between 77-78 and 83-84 daily with zero issues. I keep the heater set to come on if the tank gets cooler than the 77-78.

 

[FlipToast]

Ideal temp swing

I get paid to research, I just haven't gotten into much of the temp swing stuff yet as far as that goes. Most of the knowledge from this hobby is based off experiences of hobbyists. Scientific data is definitely a great step towards a more healthy reef, but hobbyists are the ones with the real life situations. I have found more helpful circumstantial information from them then through gallons of data.

For example:
Dr Coralcheese could be discovering situations where zoanthids may thrive. These same situations can also be dangerous to other animals! Tides are a great example. Zoanthids often reside on the top of the reef that sticks out of the water for hours. I you were to set up a reef tank with high/low tide you would kill a ton of things that aren't capable of living out of water. Sponges, some starfish, urchins. Some animals just cannot make it back to the water fast enough. So basically this scientist just told me something that I cannot apply to a real world situation without having a species only tank.

Now! This information is not useless. Given these extreme conditions, zoanthids are capable of being shipped dry, taken out of the water to frag, and even handle some extreme heat.

I just believe real world experience creates more real world data.

 

[ptreef]

I also thought I read somewhere (could be wrong) that most reef ocean areas have a daily temp swing of like a degree or two as well.

 

[ptreef]

We tend to keep our tanks much cooler than the majority of the corals in nature experience. I run between 77-78 and 83-84 daily with zero issues. I keep the heater set to come on if the tank gets cooler than the 77-78.

Am I reading this right? You have about a 5-6* daily swing 77/78* - 83/84*

I assume no chiller and just heaters to keep tank from dropping below ~77*?

 

[FlipToast]

That's way less then some of our tanks. People have their controllers set to +/-.2* and complain about being unstable...others go up to 5 degrees difference and are fine.
Maybe fluctuation is good?

 

[sirreal63]

I also thought I read somewhere (could be wrong) that most reef ocean areas have a daily temp swing of like a degree or two as well.

I remember many years ago Greenbean reporting that on one of the reefs he measured up to 10-15 degrees in minutes, IIRC. The main reason for no issues is the time factor.

Read CJ's article linked above, it will help.

 

[houstonhobby]

When people say a degree or two, pay attention to where they live. Degree C is almost twice as big as degree F.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

The biggest danger is in using a chiller to keep the temp from varying at all. Keeping the tank at one temp all the time is bad because someday something will happen to cause issues. Lose electricity, have a heater stick, chiller malfunction and suddenly you have a tank full of corals that have have no acclimation to a temp swing. The damage is more probably because they have adapted to a no temp change scenario and now the temp is changing. Allowing a normal fluctuation of temps is an insurance policy. The corals are adapted to it so when something happens that brings them outside of their normal range, they are more able to handle it, they go through a temp variation daily.

This idea is the basis of the thread. This is why I am asking the question I am asking. I have the ability with my chiller and controller to keep temp within a tenth of a degree. But given that I could do that, I understand that isnt necessarily the best policy. I totally get the people who let the tank swing because they lack the absolute control over it, but I'm saying given you have absolute control, what is ideal?

 

[sirreal63]

Correct. I have a chiller, it has been in a the fish closet since 2005 or 2006 and hasn't been used since. I have no fans anywhere on the tank, run MH and VHO over a shallow tank. It was in 2005 that I began to listen to what people who were actually studying this had to say, and when I began to allow that swing. At the time Greenbean was a student, now he is a scientist. If you look at the polls on this subject by doing a search, you will find a lot of us who allow that daily swing to happen. I would not intentionally cause a swing, but if the tank does it on it's own I would let it, within reason, and I would do it slowly. You risk damage by not slowly acclimating corals to a swing, especially if they are not already going through one daily.

 

[sirreal63]

This idea is the basis of the thread. This is why I am asking the question I am asking. I have the ability with my chiller and controller to keep temp within a tenth of a degree. But given that I could do that, I understand that isnt necessarily the best policy. I totally get the people who let the tank swing because they lack the absolute control over it, but I'm saying given you have absolute control, what is ideal?

If you can assure that nothing ever has the chance to change that set temp, there is no danger. If you can always prevent a heater malfunction, prevent an electrical malfunction and prevent a chiller malfunction, it will work fine. You have been here long enough to have seen many people lose electricity or have a chiller malfunction after years of stability and lose everything.

In spite of what many people assume, corals do not come from a stable, calm and never changing environment. They come from a temp swinging, salinity swinging and at times very violent environment. They deal with this as well as predation, storms, physical damage from fish, powerful wave action and currents, etc etc. The chemistry is fairly stable and that is what is most important. Other than that, their environment is at times harsh one.

 

[ptreef]

This idea is the basis of the thread. This is why I am asking the question I am asking. I have the ability with my chiller and controller to keep temp within a tenth of a degree. But given that I could do that, I understand that isn't necessarily the best policy. I totally get the people who let the tank swing because they lack the absolute control over it, but I'm saying given you have absolute control, what is ideal?

From my readings most agree that few degree ~2-3 is perfectly fine and probably beneficial, while a 5-6* maybe a rare few like sirreal63 mentioned, but tolerable to corals....

A CONSTANT temp with in a few 1/10 of degree's probably has no benefit and a larger strees if the tank ever does swing for some reason and also a waste of extra energy heating & cooling tank constantly one way or the other!

I am curios to see if many others are seeing that 5* daily swing on avg.

The 4* one's I have every now and then were starting to worry me a tad, but sounds like no reason to worry! All seems to be happy with the swing!