Imidacloprid and activated carbon

[reefkeeper2]

I am in the process of replacing my display tank because of structural issues with the acrylic. Because of this I am taking this opportunity to rid my system of AEFW. I have plumbed a 110gal holding tank into the system and plan on keeping the sps in there until the new tank is up. The plan is to dip all the colonies ( with Bayer) on a weekly basis for 8 weeks. First I will disconnect the holding tank from the system. The colonies will be removed and dipped and after a very good rinse returned to the holding tank. For insurance, I plan on charging my diatom filter with a healthy dose of norit activated carbon and running it in the holding tank for the entire day before I reconnect it to the system. How efficient do you think the carbon will be in eliminating any traces of insecticide from the water? I don't want any of my invertebrates in the display to be accidently poisoned.

 

[bertoni]

From what I can tell, it might be bound effectively enough. It seems to degrade rapidly in water, as well.

 

[reefkeeper2]

That's good to know. I've read where people have killed off all of their pods and shrimp because they didn't rinse well enough. Also I am dipping colonies, not frags so the chances of excess getting into the tank water are greater. I'm a bit nervous. I would do just a few at a time but then I would be constantly dipping. Ahh the joys of reefing.

 

[tmz]

Paul.

Which Bayer product do you plan to use,there are several ? The cyfluthrin in most of them may be more of a worry than the imidaclopid. Cyfluthrin is a synthetic pryethroid. While it breaks down in sunlight and the athmospshere it has apparently according to some reports harmed aqautic life in rivers. This is from Wikipedia:

pyrethroids are toxic to fish and other aquatic organisms. At extremely small levels, such as 2 parts per trillion,[8http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethroid#cite_note-8

there is a reference included to a study on California rivers. I don't know if gac will bind it or not .

 

[reefkeeper2]

It's the complete insect killer that is now very popular for use as a dip to kill pests on coral. It does contain 8-Cyfluthrin and Imidacloprid. Maybe I should use it on just the delicate smooth skinned acros and use Revive on the rest.

 

[tmz]

I've used the Bayer COMPLETE Insect Killer concetrate for soil and turf(0.72% Imidacloprid ; 0.36% cyfluthrin) for tegastes , aefw, monit nubranch at a dsoe of 30ml per 1500ml of tank water for a a ten minute bath with flow from a small power head. Then a two plus hour soak in a couple of gallons of tank water with a power head. I only do a few frags at a time though and they go back into the 650 gallon system without issues.

Don't know first hand if it kills aefw or monti nudis or not. It does seem to kill tegastes(redbugs) . I don't have aefw or monti eating nudis but did have them several years ago.I keep a number of wrasses so that may have something to do with their demise.

I do run rox 8 gac in small amounts continuously in the main system btw.

I still on't like the cyflurthin angle but compromised since so many have reported no issues with it.

 

[reefkeeper2]

It's possible to buy imidacloprid alone under the Bayer trade name Merit. But would it kill the pests as effectively? Toxicity at 2 parts per trillion? Sounds so lethal but so many have used it without issues.

 

[tmz]

Yep ,tough call but at least we know some of the potential and can go easy with lot's of rinsing/soaking. Some don't and still have not reported any issues . Don't know of any reports on the imidaclorpid alone but it seems safer.May not kill the red bugs though.

 

[reefgoddess808]

I am a pest control technician, please avoid using any kind of pesticide anywhere near your tank.

 

[tmz]

What do you recommend for controlling acro eating flatworms, momtipora eating nudibranch and/or tegastes( red bugs)?

 

[mayjong]

I am a pest control technician, please avoid using any kind of pesticide anywhere near your tank.

many, many folks use bayer insect killer as a dip for coral with less ill effects than the "store bought" coral dips. it is fine...
the issue for most is rinsing the bayer off the coral completely before returing to the tank...

 

[reefkeeper2]

many, many folks use bayer insect killer as a dip for coral with less ill effects than the "store bought" coral dips. it is fine...
the issue for most is rinsing the bayer off the coral completely before returing to the tank...

And that is why I asked about the activated carbon. Some things it removes well, others not so well. I thought maybe some of our chem wizards in here might be able to tell.

 

[tmz]

Been looking around for information and can't give you an answer on gac and pyrethroid(cyfluthrin). There is a 36 page EPA report which examines toxicity of pyrethroids. It confirms high toxicity for aquatic animals Apparently, it accumulates in sediment in some rivers near residential run off areas . So while it may/ may not be a high affinity item for gac ; it doesn't seem to breakdown readily in water like it does in the air and sun. All in all, after skimming through those reports I'd say letting cyfluthrin get into an aquarium over a period of time may result in a harmful accumulation. It's a significant worry in my opinion. I did post a concern about it in the red bug cure thread. Although I've used it a few times for a small number of corals ,I personally don't plan to use it anymore except perhaps with corals placed in a qt set up after treatment for a very long soak. Even then it would have to be a last resort for me. The anecdotal success reports notwithstanding.

Perhaps someone else has more info on whether pyrethroids that might br carried in with a dipped coral or coral base will be removed by gac.

 

[bertoni]

Allegedly, at least, imidacloprid binds strongly to organics, which makes me think carbon might remove it, either by binding the medication or the organic to which it might bind. Given such a high toxicity, though, I'd be very cautious. In addition, the Wikipedia page says it breaks down rapidly in water, which is a good sign, although it still would take a while to disappear. The half-life is given as 1-4 hours.

I'll have to check on the pyrethroid.

 

[FF337]

Imidacloprid is a systemic insecticide. Used in the lawn a garden, it is absorbed the roots and transmitted to the leaf. This allows a period of time the whole plant is guarded.

Cyfluthrin kills on contact (or shortly there after). Think wasp spray, it kills the wasp immediately but you do not want to spray around the parameter of the your home with it to have long lasting control of bugs. There is no residue affects.

The two combined are affective in the short term and long term for the use it is intended for....lawn and garden.

I have a feeling the cyfluthrin is the more effective chemical in our intentions, to control or kill unwanted reef pest.

 

[reefkeeper2]

With a half life of 1-4 hours there is nothing to worry about then with the imidaclopred as I can easily isolate the storage tank for the entire day or longer. The cyfluthrin is another matter.

 

[FF337]

I believe so. While used on plants, in my experience it is best effective while applying when the soil is dry. This almost guarantees chemical uptake.

I AM talking about plants. However, what are the odds that corals are able to systemically absorb and store chemicals?

If you happen to get a known systemic chemical on your skin, the body can readily absorb it and store the chemical/ takes longer to metabolize. Verses a contact chemical, it is quickly metabolized then out of the body. Obviously, long term or repeated exposures are not good.

I have experimented with many pesticides/insecticides on corals, some very strong rates. One is very effective, but almost instantly bleaches the corals tested (Forest Fire digitata and ORA Borealis), however the polyp extension was not effected much.

 

[FF337]

With a half life of 1-4 hours there is nothing to worry about then with the imidaclopred as I can easily isolate the storage tank for the entire day or longer. The cyfluthrin is another matter.

This may be true when stored in water. Once stored in a tissue, plants in my experience, this chemical is stored for months. Or possibly years.
http://www.imidaclopridandtrees.com/benefitsoftrees.html

I am not a chemist. I was a certified herbicide and pesticide applicator for years. Honestly, have no clue how long imidacloprid residue is stored in water. I used it immediately after mixed.

I am interested in the study on these chemicals on the pure effectiveness on AEFW :uzi::uzi::uzi:

 

[tmz]

I think the cyflutrin is the more lethal at least for red bugs. Users seem to credit the imidaclorprid for aewf and monit nudibranch control. While, cyflutrin breaks down quickly in the air with sunlight;it appears that's not the case in run off water from the EPA studies. If I'm missing something on that I'd like to know,since it's easy and convenient to use the COMPLETE product but if cyflutrin doesn't break down in water it wouldn't take much of a buildup to get to toxic levels ( single digit parts per trillion) ;particularly, if it was used for a large number of specimens over a period of time.

 

[dkeller_nc]

Both imidacloprid and cyfluthrin have molecular structures that would lead me to believe that they're highly polar and in some ways resemble aniline dyes. Granular activated carbon is generally highly effective at removing substances like these (organic polar molecules), but the potential problem you might have is competition for the binding sites on the carbon by other molecules commonly found in tank water, particularly if the goal is to get below parts per trillion.

Were this my system, I'd be thinking about putting together a temporary sump (a Rubbermaid roughneck tote would work) with a skimmer, a return pump and a few pieces of sacrificial live rock. If nothing else, it would give me piece of mind.