In practical terms can we ever be 100% ich free?

[elegance coral]

In practical terms can we ever be 100% ich free?

Absolutely.

Just as my home is free from fleas even though I have dogs, and
my home is free from lice even though people live in it.

It may take some effort to keep parasites out of the living quarters of their host, but it absolutely can be done.

To say that all aquariums have ich, simply is not true.

The knowledge is there. We know how to deal with this parasite, and create an ich free environment for out pets. The question is, do we have the discipline needed to create that healthy environment?

Personally, I QT everything, and I have no signs of ich in any of my tanks.

Peace
EC

 

[mattsilvester]

Well thanks to everyone for their input. From this I have arrived at 3 conclusions:

1. Fish must be quarantined and "treated" if it is guaranteed to be "ich free". Otherwise, it could be asymptomatic for weeks but have just one cyst in its gill or nostril that gets transferred to the DT.

2. Anything "wet" that goes in the tank needs a 72 day fish free q-tine period.

3. In the first instance, when the tank is set up with LR etc. it should cycle for 72 days before any fish is added (as such an extension of #2).

If these 3 steps are followed religiously, then it should be statistically impossible to have ich in the display. The weakest link being #1 and what extremes one goes to in order to ensure the fish just not harbour a single copper resistant or hypo resistant cyst.

Would everyone agree that this formula leads to the holy grail?

 

[ca1ore]

I would have said that it is possible to have a 100% ich-free tank ... except today one of my Hippo tangs has some suspicious white pimples that appear to be ich ... and I haven't had a new, non QT fish in that tank for almost 6 weeks ....

 

[MrClam]

I believe where people get hung up in debate is the difference between plausible and certain. There exists a spectrum of risk from 100% certain to complete luck. The only way to guarantee that a tank is 100% Ich free is to never fill it with water. There is an extreme QT idea of 1 year observation/treatment of all livestock and rock, which would yield a 99.999999% certainty of being Ich free. If you follow a normal QT and preventative medicine regimen it is very likely that you are disease free in the DT. If you don't QT anything you still have a 5% (made up) chance of never having Ich.

I do a 6week QT on fish without treatment (unless there are signs) and dip corals. So id say im at about an 80% chance haha.

 

[thelostrican]

Food doesn't cure ich. It's important to have well nourished fish for lots of reasons but crytocaryon is an equal opportunity killer. Fat and healthy fish are not excused. This parasite likes their flesh , gills in particular ,too.

Qt with preventative treatment via tank transfer is near a certainty to remove any ich from the fish. Some strains are copper resistant; some are hypo resistant ;some fish are sensitive to copper . Tank transfer is med free ;it just abandons the parasites in an empty tank.
This well studied parasite only lives in the fish for 3 to 7 days .It leaves, swims to the bottom or other surfaces and forms a cyst which generally hatches in around two weeks multiplying by hundred folds . The new parasites swim out and must find a fish to eat within a day or starve.
Tank transfer(4 moves ,one every 3 days ) is timed to ich's life cycle and simply leaves all the parasites behind in empty tanks which when dried are free of viable cysts as they perish when not wet.

There are many studies , threads and articles on this plague; just search the web for crytocaryon irritans and learn about the enemy. No guesswork or pet theories are needed.

Asymptomatic ich or even mild occasional visible spotting is probably still there once ich is introduced since survivors develop only a partial immunity and host small numbers of parasites,usually in the more acdesible tender tissues of the nostrils , gills and mouth which you don't see. Bet the fish knows they're there. though. A tank kept fishless for 72 days will end it.

I keep over 40 fish including some delicate species like seahorses and ich prone tangs and others . There is no ich and hasn't been any in over 7 years, once I got by early mistakes with garlic, uvs , diet.elixers and so on. I last added a fish several months ago. I have also helped others achieve ich "free" tanks and take in rescue fish.

I can be hard headed at times but after losing some fish to years ago I got serious. I hope others just skip the carnage and take the right steps from the start.
I do a little less than Jerpa recommends ,though . I have no issue with the process recommended. I could do more observation post tank transfer( my usual is 2 weeks after the 12days for tank transfer) and do when a fish exhibits symptoms of other maladies. I do not quarantine coral or other inverts.

FWIW this thread summarizes the methods I use for fish acclimation ,quarantine and preventative treatment:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929&highlight=fish+acclimation+and+quarantine

I doubt that there are copper resistant strains of ich, I have seen people that don't know how to use it, are there any studies?...many people will not follow protocol, or don't know any better.
a well executed qt with 6 weeks of cupramine should take care of any possibility of ich, it has never failed me...do I do 6 weeks always? No,but never less than 4.
If I have doubts I go for 6. and then it's 4 extra weeks of observation....always.

I love the qt process, it's my bonding time with this fish, it's were I learn their way and they learn mine... I fatten them up for a few weeks before copper, and leave them for 4 weeks after...

I won't lie I do loose fish in qt, but my mortality rate is low, but what's best, is that when they graduate to my dt they thrive, and my other fish don't get sick..

It's easier for a fish to thrive when they don't have any illness, and when they don't have to learn it all, while being Harrased...

I also use an uv, for any pathogen. I run it 24/7 and usually change the bulb when I get a new fish...

I don't use hypo as it doesn't work 100 percent.and it only treats ich.
Wrasses won't tolerate hypo in the long run, leopards will die within 2 to 4 weeks of it...

I don't use transfer method, it didn't work for me, and it only treats ich.

I do have to add that while in qt, I use prazi pro before and after copper, and I also have an use quickcure for freshwater bath if needed...

 

[tmz]

That's right tank transfer only treats ich( the subject of this thread) and I use it as a preventative treatment for all new fish as part of the qt process against this most common parasite.. Velvet needs copper or formalin for example ;;flukes are best treated with prazi pro or formalin an for brooklynella ,I use formalin. Copper won't do it all either. Prbably teh most universal treatment for a braod range ofdiseases is formalin but it can be quite harsh. After transfer treatment and qt , fish move to a cycled tank for an additional period of observation with treatment as necessary for the less common maladies that may occur.

There are several reports of copper resistant strains particularly when fish are exposed to sub lethal levels during the chain of custody. I've used copper with failures and I do know how to use it. It was my favorite treatment for a long time.
I still use it in certain situations but don't want to expose fish to it as a preventative treatment for ich although I think it can be very effective in most cases.
Ammonia kills in qt sometimes ; copper medication partilualry bound medications like cupramine preclude the use of ammonia detoxifiers(together they can be lethal) ;a safely cycled tank is not always available. With a med free qt with tank transfer ammonia deoxifiers are a nice safety net.
All in all for me tank transfer is easiest , least stressful as a routine part of the qt process and has been most successful for preventing and treating crytocaryon irritans(ich).

 

[thelostrican]

Tom I did add after you posted that i use prazi and quickcure, i truly have never had a copper treatment that didn't work, and since I run a qt 24/7 I am not worried about ammonia I do run a seachem ammonia alert, just in case, and do keep water prepared.

The tank transfer method didn't work for me anthias and wrasses in general would get to stress out and would stop eating, and by the time they are eating again, its time to transfer again....

I guess no method is perfect, and one has to stick to what has work...

 

[tmz]

I agree each his own. Both tank transfer and copper are good methods,imo, depending on the individual preference anda particular situation.
Quarantine foe all new specimens from the start with either a long period of observation or a shorter one with preventative preventative treatment is the main thing.
Beyond that it's fun to discuss the fine points. BTW, I have done a number of wrasses ,anthias with tank transfer including some fussy tiaras. Even several mandarins and a leopard wrasse . They are all living happily in my tanks now. A sponge bubble up filter can help feeding in the qt tank for fish that like to peck, btw. The sponge gathers up some morsels and fish like manadarins chow off th sponge. PVc hiding / resting spots are useful with skiddish fish in particular.