Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[JonezNReef]

Hello! I've been searching the forum for current info regarding people's experience using the Jaubert plenum, and I've enjoyed your posts. I was hoping you would take some time to help me with a bit of guidance. Thanks in advance!

I'm currently running a 180 gal reef tank that utilizes a 30 gal refugium and a 60 gal sump. I have built a plenum in both the refugium and the sump. The display tank utilizes live rock that I made myself (2 parts FL crushed coral, 2 parts Special Grade Reef Sand, 1 part white Portland Cement). The refugium also contains a glass bowl with approx 2" deep Miracle Mud in which I have growing 6 red mangrove seedlings. The sump has a GAC media chamber, calcium reactor, and a protein skimmer. Lighting is via Orphek Atlantik V3 pendants.

I was motivated to set up the plenum after reading Live Sand Secrets by Bob Goemans. However, I now find that the crushed coral substrate is fused together in the refugium. Interestingly, this does not seem to have occurred in the sump. The only major difference is that the sump is not lit. Have you experienced this issue? What might be the cause, and do you think it is a problem? I worry that the fused substrate might impede nutrient transfer.

I noticed in one of your posts that you mentioned having a 20 yr old setup that utilizes such a plenum, but would not construct a new tank with one. Would you elaborate as to why, and would you recommend that I remove mine?
My tank parameters are:
NO3 2ppm
PO4 undetectable using my Hanna colorimeter
dKH 8.5
calcium 415ppm
salinity 1.025
temp 24 deg C

The tank setup is relatively new; July 2016. Fish were added first; corals only since Jan 2017. I am having issues with browning and poor polyp extension with some SPS. Certain frags have succumbed to RTN. Most LPS and soft corals are fine, with the exception of a couple of chalice corals that experienced local bleaching and tissue death.

Some of my SPS are fine, but taking all of the symptoms together, including loss of 2 red collar snails and the semi-permanent retraction of a third, I feel there is something going on in the system. I am trying to troubleshoot and would like your experienced feedback concerning the system generally and the Jaubert plenum specifically. Thanks again for your time.

I wanted to do a plenum in my 180 but decided against it at the last moment but I doubt that it is your issue here. The crushed coral fuzzing together happens a bit in a lot of tank not just ones with plenums. As for your coral, your parameters seem on point and I am no expert but I am wondering if your lighting might be the issue. A lot of corals brown up when they aren't getting enough light. I am unfamiliar with your lighting and not sure what intensity they are set at and how many you are running but thats something to look into maybe. Have you had any sudden swings in ALK, PH, or Temp because those are major causes of RTN. Also have you added anything new just before it started?

 

[bgjetlag]

Yeah, I suspect that the SPS brown out is due to their new location under LED's. They came from under Halides at the store. These are an Orphek product and should have more than enough PAR to support SPS, especially where I have them at the top of the tank. Thing is, even with the color 'shift' that I'm hoping is temporary, some colonies are looking good with full polyp extension while others are obviously struggling and a few are showing tissue death around the base progressing upwards.

As far as what's new; pretty much everything. I've been continually adding stock to the tank over the past 3 months. It's the newer arrivals (which are loaded towards SPS) which are showing signs of stress. I caught my NO3 higher than I thought it was, at 10ppm. Five 30 gal water changes later (over a week) and the level is down to 2ppm. I've also started dosing Red Sea's NOPOX (basically carbon dosing) in order to establish and maintain healthy levels of denitrifying bacteria. Still looking into how to set that up with a dosing pump so that it doesn't evaporate out!

If something I added to the tank introduced a disease, etc, I'd have no idea what. Just going to try to keep parameters healthy, clean, and stable. Fingers crossed that those under stress will adapt and recover....

 

[JonezNReef]

Yeah, I suspect that the SPS brown out is due to their new location under LED's. They came from under Halides at the store. These are an Orphek product and should have more than enough PAR to support SPS, especially where I have them at the top of the tank. Thing is, even with the color 'shift' that I'm hoping is temporary, some colonies are looking good with full polyp extension while others are obviously struggling and a few are showing tissue death around the base progressing upwards.

As far as what's new; pretty much everything. I've been continually adding stock to the tank over the past 3 months. It's the newer arrivals (which are loaded towards SPS) which are showing signs of stress. I caught my NO3 higher than I thought it was, at 10ppm. Five 30 gal water changes later (over a week) and the level is down to 2ppm. I've also started dosing Red Sea's NOPOX (basically carbon dosing) in order to establish and maintain healthy levels of denitrifying bacteria. Still looking into how to set that up with a dosing pump so that it doesn't evaporate out!

If something I added to the tank introduced a disease, etc, I'd have no idea what. Just going to try to keep parameters healthy, clean, and stable. Fingers crossed that those under stress will adapt and recover....

Ive had this happen with new arrivals too. Sometimes they just can't get used to YOUR water because your tank could have stuff in it that wasn't present in the LFS's tank. Not too much is known, atleast from what Ive read, when it comes to RTN and your parameters are in check with no swings but it still happens. Water changes always helped out but sometimes even thats not enough. Keep us posted on your plenum. I am still curious about them. How did you set yours up?

 

[bgjetlag]

Volcanic sand

Volcanic sand

Update: Seem to have found the source of the problem...or at least something very concerning. Some at my LFS had expressed concern about black sand and had seen similar issues with their SPS (browning, lack of polyp extension, followed by tissue necrosis). After losing several more SPS frags and watching some small acan colonies suffer and waste, I decided to remove 80lbs of black sand from my tank (CaribSea live black sand).

Please see the attached pic. This is a Tunze rare earth magnet used to mount powerheads on glass up to 1/2". Think there are any metals in the sand??

That was over 2 weeks ago and things are starting to come back. A goni that had spent its entire time withdrawn has extended again. Unfortunately, a couple of SPS's were beyond help and have since succumbed. The acan colonies are looking better though.

I used one packet of the Two Little Fishies MetaSorb (removes several metals and medications from aquaria) and it turned slightly orange/red. I replaced it with a second packet recently.

 

[Subsea]

Seaweed salad

Seaweed salad

I think I've heard your sermons before Pat ( ), but you still haven't posted your red and green grape cheviche recipe anywhere I now of. Seems like a good way to recoup some of the money I've spent on my tanks.

First, when you wash the seaweed, use salt water. Perferable cold to enhance crispness. I do not add anything to the seaweed until it is time to eat. I have found that lime juice will effect texture in a very short time.
Soy sauce
Sesame seed oil
Lime Juice

When I make a cevicee, I use tomatoes, hot & sweet peppers, onions and a cruncy vegetable like celery of zucinni. Add Tony Chacheres Creole Seasoning and lime juice to taste. This a vetetarian chevichee. Then I make a sushi dish with a firm fish or shrimp. Don't use Cod Fish. While I like Cod cooked, it gets rubbery with the lime juice marinade. Then the third dish is the seaweed in a bowl of cold salt water. When prepared with 3 separate dishes people can taste as an individual serving or mix & match.

Enjoy the abundance of the ocean.

 

[Subsea]

Hello! I've been searching the forum for current info regarding people's experience using the Jaubert plenum, and I've enjoyed your posts. I was hoping you would take some time to help me with a bit of guidance. Thanks in advance!

I'm currently running a 180 gal reef tank that utilizes a 30 gal refugium and a 60 gal sump. I have built a plenum in both the refugium and the sump. The display tank utilizes live rock that I made myself (2 parts FL crushed coral, 2 parts Special Grade Reef Sand, 1 part white Portland Cement). The refugium also contains a glass bowl with approx 2" deep Miracle Mud in which I have growing 6 red mangrove seedlings. The sump has a GAC media chamber, calcium reactor, and a protein skimmer. Lighting is via Orphek Atlantik V3 pendants.

I was motivated to set up the plenum after reading Live Sand Secrets by Bob Goemans. However, I now find that the crushed coral substrate is fused together in the refugium. Interestingly, this does not seem to have occurred in the sump. The only major difference is that the sump is not lit. Have you experienced this issue? What might be the cause, and do you think it is a problem? I worry that the fused substrate might impede nutrient transfer.

I noticed in one of your posts that you mentioned having a 20 yr old setup that utilizes such a plenum, but would not construct a new tank with one. Would you elaborate as to why, and would you recommend that I remove mine?
My tank parameters are:
NO3 2ppm
PO4 undetectable using my Hanna colorimeter
dKH 8.5
calcium 415ppm
salinity 1.025
temp 24 deg C

The tank setup is relatively new; July 2016. Fish were added first; corals only since Jan 2017. I am having issues with browning and poor polyp extension with some SPS. Certain frags have succumbed to RTN. Most LPS and soft corals are fine, with the exception of a couple of chalice corals that experienced local bleaching and tissue death.

Some of my SPS are fine, but taking all of the symptoms together, including loss of 2 red collar snails and the semi-permanent retraction of a third, I feel there is something going on in the system. I am trying to troubleshoot and would like your experienced feedback concerning the system generally and the Jaubert plenum specifically. Thanks again for your time.

BJ,

No I would not change out Jaubert Plenumn. The differrence between a Jaubert Plenum with a coarse DSB and a standard DSB is not only the grain size but the populations that flourish in a fine substrate, mainly worms. The Jaubert Plenumn uses faculative bacteria and performs denitrification, nitrate molecule turned into a free gas molecule to be exported at the water air interface. The DSB uses micro fana and flora to recycle nutrients and feed the tank. Jaubery Plenumn will also feed the tank but not to the same extent.


Your set up sounds solid and you should have great results. I can not over emphasis the importance of GAC. It is the only thing that removes DOC from the bulk water. I do not suscribe to the EPA montra that "Dilution is the solution to pollution".

The reason that I would not set up another Jaubert Plenumn is because if neglected they will becomer a problem. To maintain a Jaubert Plenumn with coarse substrate, I would recommend bristle worms, Cerith Snails, Nassarius Vibex Snail and both amphipods and copepods. The main reson that I would not set up another DSB is that there are other nutrient export mechanisms that are easier to maintain. I like 1" sandbeds with decorative macro in the display tank.

 

[Subsea]

Iron in Miracle Mud

Iron in Miracle Mud

Update: Seem to have found the source of the problem...or at least something very concerning. Some at my LFS had expressed concern about black sand and had seen similar issues with their SPS (browning, lack of polyp extension, followed by tissue necrosis). After losing several more SPS frags and watching some small acan colonies suffer and waste, I decided to remove 80lbs of black sand from my tank (CaribSea live black sand).

Please see the attached pic. This is a Tunze rare earth magnet used to mount powerheads on glass up to 1/2". Think there are any metals in the sand??

That was over 2 weeks ago and things are starting to come back. A goni that had spent its entire time withdrawn has extended again. Unfortunately, a couple of SPS's were beyond help and have since succumbed. The acan colonies are looking better though.

I used one packet of the Two Little Fishies MetaSorb (removes several metals and medications from aquaria) and it turned slightly orange/red. I replaced it with a second packet recently.

BJ,
Some years ago, before adding Miracle Mud to a system, a good friend used a magnet and found iron particles. At the time, we thought this was a bad thing. I now add Flourish Iron to all my marine tanks. I have seen it green-up green macro algae and on my Gracilaria Hayi tumble culture it changed color from an off red to a dark burgendy in less than two days.

 

[Subsea]

I find the Forums quite resistent to novel approaches that don't involve a lot of money, aren't Tech heavy and/or aren't sponsored by some big name commercial outfit. Now I'm all for skepticism, but when someone can show honest proof of results over an extended time period then I certainly take notice and explore the topic in more depth.

Adding natural sand/mud to your system has worked well for you and I can see the potential benefits. Since many reef keepers are land-locked and don't have access to the ocean, aquarists can do a few things that help ensure that the existing strains of bacteria in a healthy reef tank continue to thrive long-term.

I typically don't add new live sand or live rock once a reef system is established. MY LR and most of my LS is around 18 years old now and whatever bacterial strains the material has acquired do their jobs well. In order to keep the bacteria productive, I regularly remove detritus from the system which allows sufficient flow/nutrients to get to the bacteria as well as remove excess organic material from the system. The system gets a weekly 'Storm' treatment with a turkey baster, too, about an hour or so before I vacuum any detritus from the sand bed (advective principle used here to advantage). And equally important, no chemical substances of any kind to eradicate 'XYZ' pests or diseases added to the system as many of these can adversely effect the beneficial bacteria in the system.

Nano,
The vendor approach to this hobby involves more and more equipment that targets a specific area. Like most things, there are multiple/cascading effects to consider when making changes. I have found that the bacteria know what to do.

Remember the margarine commercial, "It is not nice to fool Mother Nature".

 

[Subsea]

Lol

Lol

I just went crabbing and came home with about 14 of these beauties. I don't think they are vegans though. Some people call these a clean up crew, I call them dinner.

Paul,
I do not know if you are posting on this site anymore. If you get this message, thank you for the laugh.
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

Living bacteria

Living bacteria

I tried to feed my fish oysters, but they didn't touch it.

I brought two row oysters home from a cookout party. I put them in a ziploc bag and placed them in the freezer. Few days later, I took one out and sliced few small pieces. Thawed them in water, and put them in the tank. My fish didn't touch them.

Did I do anything wrong?

I do not know why your fish would not eat that. However, from an immune system point of view, you killed most of the bacteria. Just as in a human intestine, there are diverse bacteria strains living in dynamic equilibrium. When the host is dead, these bacteria populations will become skewed between differrent species. In most cases, the bacteria remaining are not desirable.

I buy a few live clams, mussels, oysters from the HEB seafood counter.They break open a sack and sell me as few or as many as I want. I usually get enough at one time to last a week. If the bi-nalve is slighly open, do not buy them.

 

[Subsea]

If it is in the water, it's in the seaweed.

If it is in the water, it's in the seaweed.

When I grew Graciilaria Parvispora ( Red Ogo) commercially, I sent it off to a scientific lab to be analyzed. It is my belief that seaweed will absorb anythig in the water. I expected the 30:1 ratio of nitrogen to phosphorous but not the 5:1 ratio of potassium to nitrogen nor the 2:1 ratio of sulphur to nitrogen. I am rethinking my nutrient dosing procedures.


Gracilaria Parvispora dry weight analysis:

Nitrogen @ 2.50%
Phosphorous @ 0.082%
Potassium @ 13.54%
Calcium @ 0.555%
Magnesium @ 1.163
Sulfur @ 4.82
Zinc @ 139ppm
Iron @ 107ppm
Manganese @ 20ppm
Copper @ 7.0 ppm

 

[Subsea]

Because I have been often asked about dosing macro tanks, I am reposting the agriculture lab test results for Gracilaria Parvispora: Red Ogo or Tang Heaven Red.

 

[Subsea]

Bugs Rule

Bugs Rule

Bugs Rule! Fascinating how research is proving some of the observations and conclusions of aquarists like Paul B and Steve Tyree. Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" is an excellent place to start. The stuff done by Dr. Andreas Haas* showing the roles algae have in promoting heterotrophic (oxygen depleting) microbes and corals promote autotrophic (oxygen enriching) is a real eye opener on natural filtration in our systems.
De Deoij's** cryptic sponge research may be a bit off topic but proves Tyree's ideas on cryptic zones.

*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23882445
**http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Tim,
I thought your links were relevant enough to post again.

 

[Subsea]

Cryptic Zone filtration

Cryptic Zone filtration

In the past, I have used GAC in a tank to remove a by product of macro: DOC. Ken Felderman has written peer reviewed articles on methods to remove DOC. His research shows that protein skimming removes 30% of DOC, GAC removes 60% and the inhabitants of a mature reef tank remove 75% of DOC.

I am not interested in nutrient export. For me, it is all about nutrient recycling. I want my nutrient sink to be corals, sponges, and micro inverts including the pod brothers (amphipods and copepods).

On my 75G Jaubert Plenumn DT and my 30G mud macro refugium, I have decided to remove macro and lights. I will place eggcrtate on top of mud and stack some dead porus rock on top of eggcrate. I have ordered a cryptic sponge starter culture and will seed this tank with it. I already have large populations of pods and worms.

 

[Subsea]

Many people that have dense rock walls may well be promoting modified cryptic zones on the unlit sides of these in tank rocks.

 

[provost_reefers]

I will be very interested to see how your cryptic sponges do. My set up is about 9 months old now, 200 gallon display with plenum, about 30 gallon refugium area in sump. No skimmer but I do use GAC and GFO. My macros are hardly growing and in previous tank, the cryptic tank above display was teeming with life. Where can one purchase the cryptic sponge starter pack?

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I don't have anything to add except that it's threads like this which keep me engaged on this forum (and engaged with the hobby in general, honestly). It's amazing that there's such a rich, never ending supply of new material to learn, no matter how long you've been doing this stuff for. To the regulars in this thread: Keep it up, everyone!

 

[Subsea]

Nature is Magnificiant

Nature is Magnificiant

I will be very interested to see how your cryptic sponges do. My set up is about 9 months old now, 200 gallon display with plenum, about 30 gallon refugium area in sump. No skimmer but I do use GAC and GFO. My macros are hardly growing and in previous tank, the cryptic tank above display was teeming with life. Where can one purchase the cryptic sponge starter pack?

Steve Tyree at ReefFarmers has them. Not sure who else on line. My friend Timfish set ups and maintains numerous systems that are more than 20 years old, sponges came in with uncured diver collected Florida live rock. You may talk to some maintenance people in your area and members in your local reef club.

With respect to macros not growing, you may be limited by a single nutrient. Russ Kronwetter at Gulf Coast EcoSystem has much information on macros. On his web site, he has a section with the most concise pragmatic information on macro that I have read. Iron is often a limited nutrient. In articles written by Randy Holmes Farley on iron in reef tanks, he sumarizes that it would be difficult to add too much iron. Furthermore, he discribes an iron nutrient storage mechanism that during iron deprevation in the bulk water, supplies needs of the macro. Terrestial plants have this same mechanism. Automatic back up systems to supply changing conditions in the reef community. Nature is magnificiant.

 

[Subsea]

I don't have anything to add except that it's threads like this which keep me engaged on this forum (and engaged with the hobby in general, honestly). It's amazing that there's such a rich, never ending supply of new material to learn, no matter how long you've been doing this stuff for. To the regulars in this thread: Keep it up, everyone!

Thank you for the encouragment. I viewed your profile. Did you complete a 300G system. I see you live in NY. I drove thru the city and stayed at Patchouge on Long Island. On the second day there I went claiming with the host and my two other brothers.. Imagine three Cajuns with their toes in the sand colecting clams. It was a blast.

The best food for disease free fish is live gut cavity bacteria. This is best supplied by live bivalves. Here in Austin, I get them at the seafood counter of local HEB

 

[Subsea]

Microbial Overlords.

Microbial Overlords.

In discussions on this thread and another thread in reef discussion on cryptic zone filtration, It is all about the bugs. If you don't think that bugs rule, then you did not see Tom Cruise in "War of the Worlds".