Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[scubadan206]

I really wonder how when so many systems we admire use it, and so many aquarists we look up to would not start a tank without it, that people still lobby that it is a waste of money.:uhoh2:

 

[Subsea]

I really wonder how when so many systems we admire use it, and so many aquarists we look up to would not start a tank without it, that people still lobby that it is a waste of money.:uhoh2:

Generally speaking, reef hobbiest are passionate about their systems. Sometimes it is like discussing religion or politics. Instead of a dialogue, it's a monologue with people not hearing the other point of view. All to often, equipment manufactures have a following of lobiest that are proponents of that method. Many differrent methods of reef keeping will work. The methods used in nano and pico tanks would not be the same as those of us with large extended systems.

 

[mr9iron]

Thanks for sharing. I am subscribed!

 

[OllieNZ]

Generally speaking, reef hobbiest are passionate about their systems. Sometimes it is like discussing religion or politics. Instead of a dialogue, it's a discourse with people not hearing the other point of view. All to often, equipment manufactures have a following of lobiest that are proponents of that method. Many differrent methods of reef keeping will work. The methods used in nano and pico tanks would not be the same as those of us with large extended systems.

Unfortunately this can be one of the most difficult things for a new hobbyist. Many people want instant success, throwing a load of money at a bunch of kit is certainly easy and with the right kit (and a lot of work) you'll certainly be successful. Due to the lack of experience outside of this box, the box becomes gospel and anything outside is to be feared, denounced or ridiculed.
I think it's good for out of the box thinking to be shared.

 

[Paul B]

:fish1: Hi, just did a complete change of the sand in my tank, collected from the outer reefs off the Florida Keys over the last month. With the sand change I removed all the old sand with a lot detritus and mulm. The new sand is full of worms and other micro and macro flora and fauna, and will hopefully enrich my bacteria colonies on the live rock. I believe in adding or changing the substrate every so often just to add new life to my system, plus I am able to redo the rock work, just make sure you wear gloves when handling the rock. Paul does changing sand or adding sand to your system have the same benefits as adding the mud you collect for your system, if not their are plenty of mud banks to collect mud from, that I could add to my fuge. My primary live food for my fish is Sargasso Shrimp and pods, and I like how you maintain your system using live food as a source for beneficial bacteria for your fish. :fish1:

I think new sand from the Keys will be great. Probably one of the best things you could do. If you never add new bacteria, especially from the sea, you will be left with whatever the LFS has for bacteria which as we know, will not be the best choice or the most diverse. It will also probably have a large percentage of disease causing bacteria without the needed beneficial bacteria you will now have from the sea.
I add bacteria and mud a few times a year and get "reprimanded" for it. I run a reverse UG filter and get "reprimanded for it. I never quarantine and get "reprimanded for it. I create typhoons and get reprimanded for it. I dose driveway ice melter and baking soda and get reprimanded for it. I collect amphipods in the sea and dump them in my tank and get reprimanded for it. I also have the longest running very healthy system where everything spawns, but many people don't want to hear that because my methods can't possibly work. My fish also can't be immune as that is impossible so it must be luck. Of course my fish have never been exposed to velvet because that would crash my tank so I am really lucky. I got my fireclowns when Reagan was President. (I am not sure they voted for him or not) Of course I can't add any tangs because they are ich magnets and are never immune.
I am certainly not the God of fish, not the smartest one on here and my tank if far from the best tank on here and I am much better with fish than corals but in 60 years I have learned a lot of things not to do.

I have no opinion on Miracle Mud as I have never used it because I have access to real mud and it is free. :dance:

 

[JonezNReef]

Unfortunately this can be one of the most difficult things for a new hobbyist. Many people want instant success, throwing a load of money at a bunch of kit is certainly easy and with the right kit (and a lot of work) you'll certainly be successful. Due to the lack of experience outside of this box, the box becomes gospel and anything outside is to be feared, denounced or ridiculed.
I think it's good for out of the box thinking to be shared.

I agree...its amazing what nature can do in our mini ecosystems that we think we have to control and manipulate rather than recreate or let happen. And all of our tanks are like ecosystems though out the world, many are alike but no 2 are exactly the same.

 

[Paul B]

If we more or less stay out of it we would have much less problems. Our animals evolved right alongside bacteria, parasites and what many of us consider pests. Seawater is also quite stable as long as we don't mess with it. I never tweeked the pH in my life and never will.
I rarely tweek, use no carbon, have no controllers, no GFO, no bio pellets, no quarantine, and no problems.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Yay, one of my favorite topics

I've been enjoying the reef hobby for over 3 decades (saltwater for 4) and have rarely used a skimmer, GAC, etc. My last 55g ran nearly 10 years before I took it down. I currently run a 12g mixed reef cube which has been in continual operation for over 8 years using the same 'natural filtration' principles.

The stability inherent in these 'simple' systems is what makes them so long lived, in my opinion.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I think new sand from the Keys will be great. Probably one of the best things you could do. If you never add new bacteria, especially from the sea, you will be left with whatever the LFS has for bacteria which as we know, will not be the best choice or the most diverse. It will also probably have a large percentage of disease causing bacteria without the needed beneficial bacteria you will now have from the sea.
I add bacteria and mud a few times a year and get "reprimanded" for it. I run a reverse UG filter and get "reprimanded for it. I never quarantine and get "reprimanded for it. I create typhoons and get reprimanded for it. I dose driveway ice melter and baking soda and get reprimanded for it. I collect amphipods in the sea and dump them in my tank and get reprimanded for it. I also have the longest running very healthy system where everything spawns, but many people don't want to hear that because my methods can't possibly work. My fish also can't be immune as that is impossible so it must be luck. Of course my fish have never been exposed to velvet because that would crash my tank so I am really lucky. I got my fireclowns when Reagan was President. (I am not sure they voted for him or not) Of course I can't add any tangs because they are ich magnets and are never immune.
I am certainly not the God of fish, not the smartest one on here and my tank if far from the best tank on here and I am much better with fish than corals but in 60 years I have learned a lot of things not to do.

I find the Forums quite resistent to novel approaches that don't involve a lot of money, aren't Tech heavy and/or aren't sponsored by some big name commercial outfit. Now I'm all for skepticism, but when someone can show honest proof of results over an extended time period then I certainly take notice and explore the topic in more depth.

Adding natural sand/mud to your system has worked well for you and I can see the potential benefits. Since many reef keepers are land-locked and don't have access to the ocean, aquarists can do a few things that help ensure that the existing strains of bacteria in a healthy reef tank continue to thrive long-term.

I typically don't add new live sand or live rock once a reef system is established. MY LR and most of my LS is around 18 years old now and whatever bacterial strains the material has acquired do their jobs well. In order to keep the bacteria productive, I regularly remove detritus from the system which allows sufficient flow/nutrients to get to the bacteria as well as remove excess organic material from the system. The system gets a weekly 'Storm' treatment with a turkey baster, too, about an hour or so before I vacuum any detritus from the sand bed (advective principle used here to advantage). And equally important, no chemical substances of any kind to eradicate 'XYZ' pests or diseases added to the system as many of these can adversely effect the beneficial bacteria in the system.

 

[lifeoffaith]

When I set up my first large system, I was working oversea on a 28 day on 28 day off work schedule. My display tank at 150G sat on a cabinet that would not allow for a sump or refugium. I used up one side of a two car garage and plumbed in a remote refugium propagation system. The refugiums consisted of two 55G tanks and the propagation troughs consisted of two 4' by 8' by 6" deep plywood tanks. When I was home, I feed heavily with the macro and pod population increasing dramatically. When I was gone for 28 days, the refugiums feed the tanks. I had no automatic feeders except for complex food webs that provided nutrient recycling.

PS. Interesting signature. Boredom in mankind may well provide some drive, I don't think it put us on top of the evolutionary ladder. I believe in a Creator that is the author of Intelligent Design. He gave us an inate appetite to strive and grow.

I am subscribing. I am also a believer in natural filtration and love learning more. I believe this is how the Creator planned things, so I should replicate nature as close as I can. I plan on setting up an algae scrubber on my next system, and hope to make it much larger than needed so that I can add a 300 gallon tank to the system down the road. Large amounts of live rock is also very important to me. I wish I could gather sand, inverts, live rock etc from the ocean, but the closest "ocean" is Lake Michigan, so I am dependent on whatever biodiversity I can get from other local hobbyists and various LFS. I try to vary my purchase locations when I can, although I am particularly loyal to one particular store in town because 1. I trust him 2. His prices are best and 3. He has the most variety which I also think is important. He will also order most anything I want if he has a source (he's had a source for most of what I've asked him for). I prefer the use of naturally occuring fish or invertebrates to take care of pests/algae and will pass them on to someone else who needs them upon them completing their task if I can't keep them alive on what my system offers. I hope to have enough tank space that I will be able to soon, even if it means swapping their tanks from time to time.

 

[toruk]

Love this thread! I love the idea of a more natural tank and hate having a ton of equipment in or around my tank. I agree with many of the comments above. As a pretty new SW fish keeper(~3 years) I find that asking a simple question often leads to a lot of opinions and a lot of criticism. It seems no matter which path you chose its the wrong one to somebody and its hard to argue against people who have been keeping SW fish for decades.

None the less I think that is one of the best parts of keeping SW/Reef fish. The fact that there are so many paths to an amazing and healthy tank. I just wish people were not soooooo critical of each other and which equipment they use, etc.

Anyway love the thread will be tagging along hoping to learn something.

 

[Paul B]

When I started my reef the only book available was Robert Straughn's "The Salt Water Aquarium in the Home" which I think I still have. In there someplace (it could have been another publication at the time as my 50 year old memories faded substantially) he advised adding garden soil to start the tank. I don't remember if I ever did this and have no idea if that would have any benefits but even though I use a lot of strange methods the thought of that does scare me a little. :fun5:
I realize many people don't live near the sea. I don't know why not, but that is a fact. :lol2:
I know they sell bacteria in a bottle which I feel is silly but it would be nice if someone (not me) sold and shipped fresh mud from some clean, muddy bay like from where I live. It is probably not legal because some congressman will say if you do that you may get a batch of invasive arrow crabs in Arizona or an octopus plague in Lake Titicoca. (wherever that is)

 

[Nano sapiens]

In there someplace (it could have been another publication at the time as my 50 year old memories faded substantially) he advised adding garden soil to start the tank. I don't remember if I ever did this and have no idea if that would have any benefits but even though I use a lot of strange methods the thought of that does scare me a little. :fun5:

Not so crazy, actually, since both terrestrial and aquatic environments depend on aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. There are multitudes of different bacterial species and many undoubtedly exist in a wide variety of different envirnoments.

 

[BlackTip]

@Subsea

Do you recommend adding bacteria in the bottle to a one year old reef tank? If so, what brand or type do you recommend?

Not everyone has Paul's backyard...

 

[Subsea]

Bacteria in a bottle

Bacteria in a bottle

Some bacteria will be short lived in our reef tanks. Particularly, the ones that produce enzymes for specific functions. At this time because of neglect with maintenance on a 6" DSB, I am adding bacteria once a week. If you're not having problems, a half dose once a month is good.

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/

This is the product that I recommend. I bought a gallon because of my large systems. It was more economical and shipping was free. While you are at the site, check on the science product information link.

 

[NS Mike D]

Some bacteria will be short lived in our reef tanks. Particularly, the ones that produce enzymes for specific functions. At this time because of neglect with maintenance on a 6" DSB, I am adding bacteria once a week. If you're not having problems, a half dose once a month is good.

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/

This is the product that I recommend. I bought a gallon because of my large systems. It was more economical and shipping was free. While you are at the site, check on the science product information link.

i found the scientific write up easy to follow and very useful, especially the part part about how most bacteria won't produce the enzymes that break down sludge if soluble micro nutrients are present.

than you for posting the link

 

[Green Chromis]

I think new sand from the Keys will be great. Probably one of the best things you could do. If you never add new bacteria, especially from the sea, you will be left with whatever the LFS has for bacteria which as we know, will not be the best choice or the most diverse. It will also probably have a large percentage of disease causing bacteria without the needed beneficial bacteria you will now have from the sea.
I add bacteria and mud a few times a year and get "reprimanded" for it. I run a reverse UG filter and get "reprimanded for it. I never quarantine and get "reprimanded for it. I create typhoons and get reprimanded for it. I dose driveway ice melter and baking soda and get reprimanded for it. I collect amphipods in the sea and dump them in my tank and get reprimanded for it. I also have the longest running very healthy system where everything spawns, but many people don't want to hear that because my methods can't possibly work. My fish also can't be immune as that is impossible so it must be luck. Of course my fish have never been exposed to velvet because that would crash my tank so I am really lucky. I got my fireclowns when Reagan was President. (I am not sure they voted for him or not) Of course I can't add any tangs because they are ich magnets and are never immune.
I am certainly not the God of fish, not the smartest one on here and my tank if far from the best tank on here and I am much better with fish than corals but in 60 years I have learned a lot of things not to do.

I have no opinion on Miracle Mud as I have never used it because I have access to real mud and it is free. :dance:

:fish1: Thanks Paul, I have always used live sand from our local reef area's, one of the benefits of living in South Florida, don't know what I would do without it, how about mud from our grass flats, I would like to put some in the fuge,a five gallon bucket or two. Their are a lot of pristine mud flats in Florida Bay, and I would love to add the biodiversity to my system. :fish1:

 

[Green Chromis]

I find the Forums quite resistent to novel approaches that don't involve a lot of money, aren't Tech heavy and/or aren't sponsored by some big name commercial outfit. Now I'm all for skepticism, but when someone can show honest proof of results over an extended time period then I certainly take notice and explore the topic in more depth.

Adding natural sand/mud to your system has worked well for you and I can see the potential benefits. Since many reef keepers are land-locked and don't have access to the ocean, aquarists can do a few things that help ensure that the existing strains of bacteria in a healthy reef tank continue to thrive long-term.

I typically don't add new live sand or live rock once a reef system is established. MY LR and most of my LS is around 18 years old now and whatever bacterial strains the material has acquired do their jobs well. In order to keep the bacteria productive, I regularly remove detritus from the system which allows sufficient flow/nutrients to get to the bacteria as well as remove excess organic material from the system. The system gets a weekly 'Storm' treatment with a turkey baster, too, about an hour or so before I vacuum any detritus from the sand bed (advective principle used here to advantage). And equally important, no chemical substances of any kind to eradicate 'XYZ' pests or diseases added to the system as many of these can adversely effect the beneficial bacteria in the system.

:fish1: Like I said, I am lucky to have access to the ocean and a boat, and living in South Florida also helps, but I do believe adding or replacing biodiversity to a system every so often really helps the system. This was the first time I changed my sand, and it was a mess, even after vacuuming it during every water change, and it is a pain in the you know what, to collect it and change it. But I believe it's worth it in the long run. :fish1:

 

[Green Chromis]

Some bacteria will be short lived in our reef tanks. Particularly, the ones that produce enzymes for specific functions. At this time because of neglect with maintenance on a 6" DSB, I am adding bacteria once a week. If you're not having problems, a half dose once a month is good.

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/

This is the product that I recommend. I bought a gallon because of my large systems. It was more economical and shipping was free. While you are at the site, check on the science product information link.

:fish1: Looks like a good product, and if I didn't have access to the reefs and ocean, I would do the same. :fish1:

 

[Subsea]

I think I've heard your sermons before Pat ( ), but you still haven't posted your red and green grape cheviche recipe anywhere I now of. Seems like a good way to recoup some of the money I've spent on my tanks.

Because I have many vegan friends, I do not put protein into the vegetable ceviche. I prepare a spicey marinade for the fish, shrimp or squid and keep it in a seperate serving dish. I also keep the seaweed in a seperate dish because the Red Ogo will go from crisp to soft. For me, eating is as much about texture as taste.
The basic cheviche mix starts with onions, peppers and tomatoes, fresh out of the garden when the deer leave me some, but canned Rotelle tomatoes work well. As I am somewhat of a free spirit when in the kitchen, I often ad what I have in the refrigerator: cucumber, radish, squash, zucchini, and celery to name a few.
Lime juice is used liberally on everything. Or is it "You put the lime in the coconut and shake it all up"?