Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[Subsea]

Nutrient recycling of phosphate by cynobacteria

Nutrient recycling of phosphate by cynobacteria

In nature, through natural evolution and survival of the fittest, energy is conserved. Meaning that nature uses biology and chemistry very efficiently. Multiple nutrient pathways provide complex food webs to feed tank inhabitants. It all starts with the bugs (microbial overlords, bacteria). Just ask the Martians in War of the Worlds if bacteria are important. If it weren't for blue/green cynobacteria Earth's athmosphere would still be methane gas.

Let us focus on cynobacteria. In the ocean enviroment, nitrogen as a free gas is converted into nitrate in a process called nitrogen fixation. In our reef tanks, inorganic phosphate in the form of calcium phosphate is converted into organic phosphate. Now you know why the water can be void of nutrients but cyno can still thrive.

When bacteria grow they absorb nutrients through their cell membrane. This includes nitrates and phosphates. Industrial waste water treatment R&D discovered that if bacteria were stressed with low oxygen levels, then phosphates were uptaken at a higher phosphate to nitrate ratio then when not stressed.

 

[smatter]

What exactly are you looking for? I never said that I had NPS biotheme tanks. I said that skimmers would be detrimental to a NPS biotheme tank.

Also, if you googled Mark Van Der Wal, you would find a skimmerless SPS/NPS tank on the Internet.

I am also wondering what he is looking for.

 

[Subsea]

Natural filtration stocking levels

Natural filtration stocking levels

^^ Unfortunately, this is a common misconception stated by various individuals and groups within this hobby. My old medium sized 55g ran without any mechanical/chemical filtration (just Live rock and live sand) for 9+ years before I downsized to a small 12g...which is fully stocked and has been running for over 8 years using the same 'natural filtration' methodology.

In the 'nano' reef tank world, there are examples of relatively large biomass to what most would consider tiny volumes of water using 'natural filtration' methods (only live rock and live sand) that have run for many, many years. As with most reef systems (but especially important for these small tanks), some hobbyist intervention is required via regular water changes and detritus removal if one wants the system to be at it's best.

+10 to what Nano Sapiens said.

 

[photoblepharon]

What exactly are you looking for? I never said that I had NPS biotheme tanks. I said that skimmers would be detrimental to a NPS biotheme tank.

Also, if you googled Mark Van Der Wal, you would find a skimmerless SPS/NPS tank on the Internet.

I was looking for some evidence to back up your blanket statement about skimmers being detrimental to an NPS tank, and it seems that you don't have any.

All of the nicest NPS tanks I've seen (uhuru, aquabacs, Steve Weast, mark54321, etc) have a skimmer on them. Mine do too and the corals certainly don't seem to be suffering for it.

 

[Nano sapiens]

^^ Yeah, I noticed that, too. The author's paragraph mentions; "check out these videos of Minh’s old reef aquarium. Skimmerless and heavily fed, this tank is an eyeful of NPS, Gorgonians, and Goniopora", but I don't see any links...

 

[Subsea]

I was looking for some evidence to back up your blanket statement about skimmers being detrimental to an NPS tank, and it seems that you don't have any.

All of the nicest NPS tanks I've seen (uhuru, aquabacs, Steve Weast, mark54321, etc) have a skimmer on them. Mine do too and the corals certainly don't seem to be suffering for it.

As in most things, we find evidence to support what we choose to believe. Instead of playing gotcha, ask me to support my blanket statement.

From what I have seen with most biotheme NPS tanks, a constant feed of food is added to tank as a drip. For that reason, a skimmer is used to remove this food before it pollutes the tank.
Using a refugium for nutrient recycling to feed the same NPS does not require a skimmer. Because the nutrients are alive, they do not pollute the tank.

PS. Did you google Mark Van Der Wal?

 

[photoblepharon]

The best support for that statement would be pictures of such a tank, which is what I asked for. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. I'm not interested in conceptual arguments.

I know Mark van der Wal pretty well. I don't think he ever had an NPS tank but he apparently wrote about them on RB. I can't find pics of them though. He doesn't have pics of one on his FB. Googling his name and NPS doesn't return much.

 

[NS Mike D]

Adding nutrients and while exporting nutrients. I do it. I didn't invent the concept, just mimicking successful reef tank owners. The concept of mother nature's energy/food cycle is easy to conceptualize, but the more I read studies and the complexities of the microfauna, the more elusive this concept becomes for me. At times, I feel like a juggler adding balls in the air, yet they aren't forming a neat elliptical flowing pattern.

I guess that's why there are differing beliefs in how to maintain what nature seems to do so easily.

And I guess that is why, for now, I will continue with the 10% water changes, even though I know 90% of what I want to remove will remain in the tank.

The logic of this hobby can drive one to insanity like a dog chasing it's tail


I love it

 

[JonezNReef]

Don't know if this is off topic but thought it was interesting

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/

 

[Pmj]

Forgive me, but I've read those this thread a few times and not sure I get the specifics. I understand the goal is to provide a food web and have natural methods instead of a sterile tank, but what are the methods you propose to achieve this? Minus Paul Bs method of gathering mud from outside (no offense, I love reading his posts!). How do you know your system is "there"? I already don't use socks, how do I increase the "right" kinds of bacteria & growth? Tank has been up since March and definitely pretty sterile still. Currently dealing with some cyano as well.

 

[Subsea]

Don't know if this is off topic but thought it was interesting

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/

It is not off topic. In fact, it is the point. I am very familiar with Ken Felderman.
He has a whole series of scientific papers on what we are talking about. He discusses the conceptual prototype and proves the concept with specific scientific qualitative results.
I do not think that pictures are the proof in the pudding. Pictures can be taken at a point in time that does not reflect a steady state for an aquarium.

Thank you for the link. Because I have done this commercially, I just did receive some demerit points from RC for posting links to other hobby sites,

 

[Subsea]

Forgive me, but I've read those this thread a few times and not sure I get the specifics. I understand the goal is to provide a food web and have natural methods instead of a sterile tank, but what are the methods you propose to achieve this? Minus Paul Bs method of gathering mud from outside (no offense, I love reading his posts!). How do you know your system is "there"? I already don't use socks, how do I increase the "right" kinds of bacteria & growth? Tank has been up since March and definitely pretty sterile still. Currently dealing with some cyano as well.

Pmj,

When you think you need to clean your glasses and after doing so, you continue to see squiggly things in the water, then you are there.
When you have filter feeders and sea apples with extended polyps after stirring your sand, then you are there.

How do you get there? First, establish the bottom of the food chain, bacteria, then move up the food chain to your janitors (CUC). Get janitors that reproduce in your tank (micro stars, Florida Cerith Snails, copepods and amphipods).

Bacteria for reef tanks can be purchased from scientific labs that specialize in aquaculture:

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/
I recommend this product. While you are at this site, go to the science behind product link.

Bacteria are also introduced with live food. I go to the HEB seafood display and get live oysters, clams and mussels. If you have read Paul's commits about gut bacteria and enhanced fish immune systems, you should feed these foods every day.

 

[Pmj]

Pmj,

When you think you need to clean your glasses and after doing so, you continue to see squiggly things in the water, then you are there.
When you have filter feeders and sea apples with extended polyps after stirring your sand, then you are there.

How do you get there? First, establish the bottom of the food chain, bacteria, then move up the food chain to your janitors (CUC). Get janitors that reproduce in your tank (micro stars, Florida Cerith Snails, copepods and amphipods).

Bacteria for reef tanks can be purchased from scientific labs that specialize in aquaculture:

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/
I recommend this product. While you are at this site, go to the science behind product link.

Bacteria are also introduced with live food. I go to the HEB seafood display and get live oysters, clams and mussels. If you have read Paul's commits about gut bacteria and enhanced fish immune systems, you should feed these foods every day.

I guess I'm wondering what I'm "missing". Tank is cycled obviously so I have denitrification bacteria. Started from pure ammonia and reef saver rock, so sterile as it gets.

Have pods & microstars, not enough though I'm sure it just takes time. Bought a pod pack and florida ceriths originally from reefcleaners (the ceriths actually lay eggs all the time, but probably get eaten) and chaeto from another reefer with tons of stuff (some stuff I can't identify to be honest). Live food I'll have to look for, I know the LFS I usually use doesn't have blackworms, I've asked. I do live in S. FL so I'm sure there are resources, just wondering how to fill in the gaps. I will check out the links more.

 

[Subsea]

I guess I'm wondering what I'm "missing". Tank is cycled obviously so I have denitrification bacteria. Started from pure ammonia and reef saver rock, so sterile as it gets.

Have pods & microstars, not enough though I'm sure it just takes time. Bought a pod pack and florida ceriths originally from reefcleaners (the ceriths actually lay eggs all the time, but probably get eaten) and chaeto from another reefer with tons of stuff (some stuff I can't identify to be honest). Live food I'll have to look for, I know the LFS I usually use doesn't have blackworms, I've asked. I do live in S. FL so I'm sure there are resources, just wondering how to fill in the gaps. I will check out the links more.

Why do you think you don't have enough? It sounds like you have plenty of what you can see. Bacteria can't be seen. Denitrification bacteria are only one group of necessary microbes. If you read the science behind the product at the link I provided, it would spell out differrent roles of bacteria in dependant of nitrogen cycle. Gut bacteria from live shellfish provide more diversity of bacteria.

 

[photoblepharon]

I do not think that pictures are the proof in the pudding. Pictures can be taken at a point in time that does not reflect a steady state for an aquarium.

Sure, a single picture doesn't always, necessarily mean what you're doing is working. Anybody can post a picture of a great looking Dendronephthya or Tubastraea straight from the ocean that dies a few months later. But it's hard for me to take anybody seriously who has an idea that just works well on paper and doesn't have a real world example to prove it works. You can demonstrate via many pictures over time that you are growing NPS corals using your principles.

For example, this is a heavily skimmed, heavily filtered tank with no refugium. Doesn't look like it's detrimental to the corals to me.

 

[Subsea]

Sure, a single picture doesn't always, necessarily mean what you're doing is working. Anybody can post a picture of a great looking Dendronephthya or Tubastraea straight from the ocean that dies a few months later. But it's hard for me to take anybody seriously who has an idea that just works well on paper and doesn't have a real world example to prove it works. You can demonstrate via many pictures over time that you are growing NPS corals using your principles.

For example, this is a heavily skimmed, heavily filtered tank with no refugium. Doesn't look like it's detrimental to the corals to me.

So as not to continue beating a dead horse, I should have said "that use of a skimmer could be detrimental to NPS if sufficient food was not made available to them". I choose to produce live food in tank and not to remove it via protein skimmers.

Your tank looks very nice and is a testimony of a serious reefkeeper.

Incidentally, I also know Charles Deelbric, Julian Sprung, Ron Schmeck and Anthony Calfo to name a few. I am glad we can all share in this marvelous hobby/passion

 

[Pmj]

Why do you think you don't have enough? It sounds like you have plenty of what you can see. Bacteria can't be seen. Denitrification bacteria are only one group of necessary microbes. If you read the science behind the product at the link I provided, it would spell out differrent roles of bacteria in dependant of nitrogen cycle. Gut bacteria from live shellfish provide more diversity of bacteria.

I don't have enough pods and stars is what I meant, and because I don't see as many as in my old tank. The TLC site just looks like plain old bacteria I already have and a bunch of salesmanship to be honest, though I'm sure it works if I needed a cycle quickly. I will look into live foods though.

 

[j_mazzy]

I am really looking for those minibrittles. i even have posts out to local reef societies. if anyone is sitting on a dozen and wouldn't mind shipping them to me I would appreciate it.

 

[Subsea]

I don't have enough pods and stars is what I meant, and because I don't see as many as in my old tank. The TLC site just looks like plain old bacteria I already have and a bunch of salesmanship to be honest, though I'm sure it works if I needed a cycle quickly. I will look into live foods though.

I have a Class 4 certification in waste water treatment, I am more than qualified to have an educated opinion on bacteria. Your concept of cycling a tank only scratches the surface on what bacteria do in our ecosystems that we call reef tanks.

Did you cycle your tank with gut bacteria to enhance fish immune system?

Bacteria produce enzymes to do many differrent functions. These bacteria are short lived in our artificial systems. It is your tank, put what you want into it.

 

[Subsea]

Generally speaking, reef hobbiest are passionate about their systems. Sometimes it is like discussing religion or politics. Instead of a dialogue, it's a discourse with people not hearing the other point of view. All to often, equipment manufactures have a following of lobiest that are proponents of that method. Many differrent methods of reef keeping will work. The methods used in nano and pico tanks would not be the same as those of us with large extended systems.

For those that think it is necessary to have hi-tech mechanical and chemical filtration, [removed]