Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[BrianD]

That is correct, but like I said, we will eventually learn. It will take some time though. I am also at fault because I was here at the start of this hobby and I also didn't get it for many years. Now my fish are immune and I never have to go on disease or quarantine threads and basically ignore them.
I try to tell people how I feel we should get our fish healthy and immune but I gave up on this site because it turns into arguments and I am to old to argue. I get nasty letters telling me how I am a detriment to the hobby for telling people these things.
This is a very large site with many people and they all have opinions. Many people started last Tuesday and they are of course correct. So I gave up on here.

The opinion others offer is no less important than yours. There is more to this hobby than anecdotal experience from one tank. We value the contributions from hobbyists of all experience levels. I hope no one feels they can't/shouldn't offer an opinion based on how long they have had a tank or how long they have been a member here.

 

[Paul B]

Brian that is of course correct. Everyone can have an opinion as long as they say it is an opinion and leave it at that. I also have many opinions and some of them were probably discovered to be wrong. I contributed almost nothing important to this thread for a reason. I realize my opinions, theories, practices and methods are controversial and my theories, practices, and methods are all just my opinion and not fact. So I keep most of them to myself. (unless someone PMs me) As I said, I am to old to argue.
Have a great day and please, everyone with an opinion on this keep posting no matter what your experience level. :fish1:
I don't want to make this thread an argument or controversial, so I will leave it.

 

[NS Mike D]

Bacteria produce enzymes to do many differrent functions. These bacteria are short lived in our artificial systems.

This was a profound take away I got from reading the link to write ups. As being fairy new, I was looking at bacterial one dimensionally, I was not aware that my typical set up and maintenance would be so limiting, and how dosing bacteria could help off set the natural cycle of bacteria populating that favors one type.

I need to reread to get a better grasp and then translate to possible changes to my tank, but for now, I am not chasing NO3 & PO4 numbers, but rather thinking more about an overall re-cycling ecosystem.

Thanks for this thread.

 

[sde1500]

Fascinating read all around. Though seems like it may have been a bit more interesting before mods showed up haha.

This has me thinking, I have a section for a big filter sock in my sump, and I have to say I'm not the biggest fan. Would a small 7x7 section with a few inches of mud in the sump, before the skimmer section, be of any benefit to the tank do you guys think?

 

[Subsea]

Mud filter

Mud filter

Fascinating read all around. Though seems like it may have been a bit more interesting before mods showed up haha.

This has me thinking, I have a section for a big filter sock in my sump, and I have to say I'm not the biggest fan. Would a small 7x7 section with a few inches of mud in the sump, before the skimmer section, be of any benefit to the tank do you guys think?

IMO, with a skimmer after the mud refugium, you would most likely remove the benificial effect. Zooplankton would adhere to bubbles from protein skimmer and would be removed from system.

 

[smatter]

One bottle of TLC bacteria en route. I will report back.

 

[Subsea]

One bottle of TLC bacteria en route. I will report back.

Good for you.

One of the first axioms about reef aquariums from 40 years ago is still true today, "Only bad things happen fast, good things sometimes require patience". It ain't magic fairy dust, but it will work.

 

[BrianD]

Fascinating read all around. Though seems like it may have been a bit more interesting before mods showed up haha.

I think this is a great thread. Unfortunately, there are certain requests that we have to make that may not make sense to the poster. They aren't something we made up today, there is always a story behind the requests. We just ask that people try to understand that. The limitations to links off-site are very few, but those that are in place will be enforced.

 

[BrianD]

Brian that is of course correct. Everyone can have an opinion as long as they say it is an opinion and leave it at that. I also have many opinions and some of them were probably discovered to be wrong. I contributed almost nothing important to this thread for a reason. I realize my opinions, theories, practices and methods are controversial and my theories, practices, and methods are all just my opinion and not fact. So I keep most of them to myself. (unless someone PMs me) As I said, I am to old to argue.
Have a great day and please, everyone with an opinion on this keep posting no matter what your experience level. :fish1:
I don't want to make this thread an argument or controversial, so I will leave it.

That's the thing, Paul. I look at the discussions as discussions of different points of view. They may be "arguments", but as long as the "arguers" are civil and respectful, everyone can learn something.

This is "Reef DISCUSSSION", after all

 

[Subsea]

Brian that is of course correct. Everyone can have an opinion as long as they say it is an opinion and leave it at that. I also have many opinions and some of them were probably discovered to be wrong. I contributed almost nothing important to this thread for a reason. I realize my opinions, theories, practices and methods are controversial and my theories, practices, and methods are all just my opinion and not fact. So I keep most of them to myself. (unless someone PMs me) As I said, I am to old to argue.
Have a great day and please, everyone with an opinion on this keep posting no matter what your experience level. :fish1:
I don't want to make this thread an argument or controversial, so I will leave it.

Paul,
I respectfully request that you continue to supply us with your knowledge, wit and humor. Censorship is not in my vocabulary. Perhaps Jack Nickolson said it best "They can't handle the truth".
Please continue to ramble along with me on this thread.
Patrick

 

[sde1500]

I think this is a great thread. Unfortunately, there are certain requests that we have to make that may not make sense to the poster. They aren't something we made up today, there is always a story behind the requests. We just ask that people try to understand that. The limitations to links off-site are very few, but those that are in place will be enforced.

Oh not knocking the work you guys do at all. Wasn't sure what was edited out, if people were tossing around insults that would have been more interesting haha. Since it was just outside links I rescind my comment, those are boring :spin3:

 

[sde1500]

IMO, with a skimmer after the mud refugium, you would most likely remove the benificial effect. Zooplankton would adhere to bubbles from protein skimmer and would be removed from system.

So the zooplankton would be removed, but it coudl still serve as a place to accumulate detritus for pods and worms etc right? Serve as some manner of food reproduction or denitrator?

 

[BrianD]

Paul,
I respectfully request that you continue to supply us with your knowledge, wit and humor. Censorship is not in my vocabulary. Perhaps Jack Nickolson said it best "They can't handle the truth".
Please continue to ramble along with me on this thread.
Patrick

You don't get it, do you?

 

[smatter]

Good for you.

One of the first axioms about reef aquariums from 40 years ago is still true today, "Only bad things happen fast, good things sometimes require patience". It ain't magic fairy dust, but it will work.

An axiom to live by for certain! This latest little tank I set up in my kitchen a few months ago has just not performed well. It's my fault. I keep screwing with it when I need to just let it get established. Foolishly I did a huge water change and decided to vacuum the sand while I was at it just because I had some extra saltwater around. Mistake. The three corals in there have only opened about half way in the past two weeks. I think it may have been the alk swing that did it. I'm back down in the 9s dkh now. Another issue is me constantly fiddling with my Nanobox light which is infinitely adjustable. A blessing and a curse. I'm going to leave that alone too as I think it is part of the problem. The oversized skimmer has also replaced by a Mame skimmer, a simple glass and limewood air stone skimmer.

Along with all the other things that are going on, I think the tank is just too clean. It's no wonder the corals aren't happy and my pod population has declined. I'm hoping this forthcoming bacterial inoculation coupled with my reduced intervention gets this little tank back on track. Thank you for the biological inspiration your writings have given me :thumbsup:

 

[Subsea]

So the zooplankton would be removed, but it coudl still serve as a place to accumulate detritus for pods and worms etc right? Serve as some manner of food reproduction or denitrator?

Zooplankton and pod & worm larvae are one in the same. Depending on flow dynamics, some zooplankton will be removed by skimmer and hopefully, some will go in display tank.

 

[Mark]

PS. Did you google Mark Van Der Wal?

Um why are people googling me? I stumbled on this thread just casually browsing RC, and see my name all of a sudden.

 

[Subsea]

Um why are people googling me? I stumbled on this thread just casually browsing RC, and see my name all of a sudden.

In a discussion on NPS tanks, I found a thread that said you discontinued use of a skimmer on a SPS/NPS tank. After further investigation, I could find no further info.

Can you elaborate on skimmerless and NPS.

Did you relocate from Eorope? I am fairly certain that Mark Van Der Wal was from Germany.

 

[Mark]

In a discussion on NPS tanks, I found a thread that said you discontinued use of a skimmer on a SPS/NPS tank. After further investigation, we could find no further info.
Can you elaborate on skimmerless and NPS.

I've gone skimmerless a lot of times, but I haven't ever really kept a longterm NPS tank. I did do it on large SPS systems. What questions do you have?

 

[Subsea]

I've gone skimmerless a lot of times, but I haven't ever really kept a longterm NPS tank. I did do it on large SPS systems. What questions do you have?

Considering that SPS & NPS require much food, some phytoplankton and some zooplankton, how were you able to keep up with NPS needs and not pollute the tank?

 

[Nano sapiens]

This was a profound take away I got from reading the link to write ups. As being fairy new, I was looking at bacterial one dimensionally, I was not aware that my typical set up and maintenance would be so limiting, and how dosing bacteria could help off set the natural cycle of bacteria populating that favors one type.

I need to reread to get a better grasp and then translate to possible changes to my tank, but for now, I am not chasing NO3 & PO4 numbers, but rather thinking more about an overall re-cycling ecosystem.

Thanks for this thread.

For nearly all of us reefers, we have no way of knowing which bacterial species are in our systems, which ones are dominant, etc. The best we can do is judge the health of the system ("is the nitrogen cycle completing resulting in low/untestable NO3? Is measurable PO4 low/acceptable? Is algae controlled?") as a whole and look at how others have set up and maintained their long lasting systems.

I suppose my contribution to this thread is to say that from my personal reef keeping experience (over 30 years) that I have never dosed a bottle of bacteria. Using the 'old-school' tried-and-tested Live Rock (originally from the ocean) and a shallow agagonite sandbed has worked very well for me. I also don't use an GAC, GFO, Bio-Pellets, Carbon dosing, skimmers or anything else (other than Kalkwaser for Ca and Alk and a few drops/wk of a commercial Iodine supplement to ensure sufficient levels for crustacean moltings) preferring to simply do weekly water changes along with detritus removal.

Of course, there are many ways to run a reef tank, but IMO the methodology used should be one where the system/animals have the proven potential to stay healthy for many, many years.