Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration
- Thread starter Subsea
- Start date
Good to see Mark popping into this thread!
Mark
Premium Member
Hey Brian! 
Patrick,
Again, I never kept any non-photosynthetic corals long term. It's on my bucket list though. As far as SPS, I never implemented long term feeding of them either. While I have tinkered with coral foods here and there, ultimately I just usually resorted to feeding the fish and letting the corals fend for themselves.
I'm a non-stop tinkerer. I like trying methodologies, mixing and matching. I try not to preach one thing over the other, because I think you can find successful examples of any method. It all works. One is not better than the other in isolation. But one might be better suited for you than the other. I wrote a blog post a long time ago about avoiding reefkeeping demagogues. People who preach one thing or another. you'll have to google it. I know there some linking issues with said blog and RC. In regards to that I can just say I was once a mod here at RC, and have also contributed to RB. I have fond feelings for both sites and the people behind them.
Regarding skimmerless.... I have also had a 'thing' for what folks call natural tanks. But what is natural? Really, all systems are bacteria driven mostly. So let me rephrase, I have a thing for systems that are less technical and more simple. But I find personally to have the best results by transitioning to less equipment slowly. I definitely see the benefit of a skimmer in the beginning when coral mass is small compared to tank volume. As the tank matures and coral mass takes up more space, I find that I can pull the skimmer with less issues. I liken it to a planted freshwater tank. Once you get enough biomass and subsequent stability, there's more biology to replace technology. I do still like carbon and water changes quarterly to avoid buildup of elements, terpenoids, and chemical warfare.
Patrick,
Again, I never kept any non-photosynthetic corals long term. It's on my bucket list though. As far as SPS, I never implemented long term feeding of them either. While I have tinkered with coral foods here and there, ultimately I just usually resorted to feeding the fish and letting the corals fend for themselves.
I'm a non-stop tinkerer. I like trying methodologies, mixing and matching. I try not to preach one thing over the other, because I think you can find successful examples of any method. It all works. One is not better than the other in isolation. But one might be better suited for you than the other. I wrote a blog post a long time ago about avoiding reefkeeping demagogues. People who preach one thing or another. you'll have to google it. I know there some linking issues with said blog and RC. In regards to that I can just say I was once a mod here at RC, and have also contributed to RB. I have fond feelings for both sites and the people behind them.
Regarding skimmerless.... I have also had a 'thing' for what folks call natural tanks. But what is natural? Really, all systems are bacteria driven mostly. So let me rephrase, I have a thing for systems that are less technical and more simple. But I find personally to have the best results by transitioning to less equipment slowly. I definitely see the benefit of a skimmer in the beginning when coral mass is small compared to tank volume. As the tank matures and coral mass takes up more space, I find that I can pull the skimmer with less issues. I liken it to a planted freshwater tank. Once you get enough biomass and subsequent stability, there's more biology to replace technology. I do still like carbon and water changes quarterly to avoid buildup of elements, terpenoids, and chemical warfare.
Nano,
You and I have been doing similar methods for a long time. The biggest difference is I have several large systems. The economics to do weekly water changes becomes somewhat prohibitive. Aside from that, I would say our reef keeping methods are nearly identical.
With respect to knowing which bacteria types are in the water, I would point you to Ken Felderman. He has done extensive research on bacteria in our reef tanks.
I personnally don't need to know what types are in my tank. As a proactive method, I choose to use probiotics as an insurance policy. For me, it is much more economical than weekly water changes. Of course, both methods are compatiable.
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Hey Brian!
Patrick,
Again, I never kept any non-photosynthetic corals long term. It's on my bucket list though. As far as SPS, I never implemented long term feeding of them either. While I have tinkered with coral foods here and there, ultimately I just usually resorted to feeding the fish and letting the corals fend for themselves.
I'm a non-stop tinkerer. I like trying methodologies, mixing and matching. I try not to preach one thing over the other, because I think you can find successful examples of any method. It all works. One is not better than the other in isolation. But one might be better suited for you than the other. I wrote a blog post a long time ago about avoiding reefkeeping demagogues. People who preach one thing or another. you'll have to google it. I know there some linking issues with said blog and RC. In regards to that I can just say I was once a mod here at RC, and have also contributed to RB. I have fond feelings for both sites and the people behind them.
Regarding skimmerless.... I have also had a 'thing' for what folks call natural tanks. But what is natural? Really, all systems are bacteria driven mostly. So let me rephrase, I have a thing for systems that are less technical and more simple. But I find personally to have the best results by transitioning to less equipment slowly. I definitely see the benefit of a skimmer in the beginning when coral mass is small compared to tank volume. As the tank matures and coral mass takes up more space, I find that I can pull the skimmer with less issues. I liken it to a planted freshwater tank. Once you get enough biomass and subsequent stability, there's more biology to replace technology. I do still like carbon and water changes quarterly to avoid buildup of elements, terpenoids, and chemical warfare.
"Avoiding reef keeping demagogues", rings of much wisdom. Eric Borneman said it this way, "If someone tells you that there way is the only way, run away from them".
With respect to reef biomass, Ken Felderman had some interesting scientific papers published. Some of his findings have moved me to where my present day methods are:
Protein skimmers, at best, remove 30% of. DOC
Activated carbon removes up to 75% of DOC
Corals remove 30% of DOC.
IMO, if his test had been run on a more mature reef tank, it could easily have skewed the absorption of DOC by coral to 75%.
Thank you for your input.
JonezNReef
Member
Hi Mark,
Subsea is referring to a short write up you did on Reef Builders "Sundays, Coffee, and unconventional reef aquariums" in Sept of 2012 where you had posted a video that is no longer there on an old NPS tank that was owned by Minh where it was ran without a skimmer.
Subsea is referring to a short write up you did on Reef Builders "Sundays, Coffee, and unconventional reef aquariums" in Sept of 2012 where you had posted a video that is no longer there on an old NPS tank that was owned by Minh where it was ran without a skimmer.
Nano sapiens
New member
Understood. If I had the voume of water that you have to maintain, I'd be going down a similar path to yours.
I think it's fair to say that we are all just looking for whichever bacteria will oblige and do the job at hand. If the tank has them in sufficient number, or if they need to be added regularly, doesn't really matter as long as they are present and doing their job
I've read Ken's work and it's very interesting. Delbeek/Sprung ('Reef Aquarium, Vol 3) also discuss the various bacterial types/species that could be in any of our tanks and even a bit regarding which species tend to dominate under which conditions. Facinating reads, for sure.
Mark
Premium Member
The video can be found on his Vimeo channel:
https://vimeo.com/2355244
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mark
Premium Member
Mark
Premium Member
Looks like Minh posted on RC as well.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1494388
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1494388
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
JonezNReef
Member
Thanks Mark!!
Outstanding. Thank you for the links. More important, thank you for your contribution to the hobby.
Nano sapiens
New member
Thanks for bringing Ken's name up again. I remember reading these articles a few years back and as a refresher I just read through them again. Interesting that some things that I had glossed over at the time as being 'not applicable', now are.
For example, in one of the article (won't try to link here) readings were taken of bacterial counts for a number of popular reef salt mixes, freshly made. 'Red Sea' was the only one that had a relatively high bacterial count very likely due to it being partially composed of evaporated natural sea salt. Where this gets interesting is that I have been using a mix of (4) different salts since I had them laying around with excellent results, where RS makes up around 20%, IO/RC around 30% (the rest split between IO and TM). This mix of salts would appear to provide some natural ocean bacteria from RS along with a source of organics (vitamins/WHY) from RC, which theoretically would provide nourishment (carbon source) for said bacteria. Apparently, every time I do a water change the system gets a nice flush of bacteria and likely explains why my fresh salt mix turns slightly milky after just a few short days in it's mixing container.
What makes this hobby so facinating (besides it's complexity) is that one comment or tidbit of information can lead to those "Aha" moments that have been right under ones nose all the while
Appologies for going somewhat off-topic, but now I have to think about if/how this contributes to having consistent '0' NO3 and PO4 (Salifert) in my 'naturally filtered' system.
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Thanks for bringing Ken's name up again. I remember reading these articles a few years back and as a refresher I just read through them again. Interesting that some things that I had glossed over at the time as being 'not applicable', now are.
For example, in one of the article (won't try to link here) readings were taken of bacterial counts for a number of popular reef salt mixes, freshly made. 'Red Sea' was the only one that had a relatively high bacterial count very likely due to it being partially composed of evaporated natural sea salt. Where this gets interesting is that I have been using a mix of (4) different salts since I had them laying around with excellent results, where RS makes up around 20%, IO/RC around 30% (the rest split between IO and TM). This mix of salts would appear to provide some natural ocean bacteria from RS along with a source of organics (vitamins/WHY) from RC, which theoretically would provide nourishment (carbon source) for said bacteria. Apparently, every time I do a water change the system gets a nice flush of bacteria and likely explains why my fresh salt mix turns slightly milky after just a few short days in it's mixing container.
What makes this hobby so facinating (besides it's complexity) is that one comment or tidbit of information can lead to those "Aha" moments that have been right under ones nose all the while
Appologies for going somewhat off-topic, but now I have to think about if/how this contributes to having consistent '0' NO3 and PO4 (Salifert) in my 'naturally filtered' system.
Nano,
It is not off topic at all. It is all about the bacteria. I made the comment about bacteria being ingrained in Red Sea salt on a differrent thread on this site and I was openly criticized by pHD chemist. I linked the reference to Ken Felderman's research plus a scientific discovery of 100 million year old bacteria encapsulated in salt crystals. For certain, when we stop learning new things we begin to die intellectually.
PS. So in effect, when you did your partial water changes you were also dosing bacteria because of the Red Sea mix.
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Nano sapiens
New member
Yes, while I knew that Red Sea was partially derived from natural sources, it didn't occur to me to consider that it might have live bacteria as a component. I think we tend to view our salt mixes as 'sterile', but at least this one is not (I've even seen RS being bashed for not being a 'pure' salt mix because it isn't 100% produced in a controlled, clinical setting).
Many in this hobby use just one salt mix at a time, but I have come to believe through my positive experiences that there are certain advantages to mixing up different brands (perhaps a topic for a different discussion).
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JonezNReef
Member
Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts on this as I have never thought about my salt in this fashion. Has definitely sparked some thought and I am definitely going to be doing some research on it as well.
Thanks for bringing Ken's name up again. I remember reading these articles a few years back and as a refresher I just read through them again. Interesting that some things that I had glossed over at the time as being 'not applicable', now are.
For example, in one of the article (won't try to link here) readings were taken of bacterial counts for a number of popular reef salt mixes, freshly made. 'Red Sea' was the only one that had a relatively high bacterial count very likely due to it being partially composed of evaporated natural sea salt. Where this gets interesting is that I have been using a mix of (4) different salts since I had them laying around with excellent results, where RS makes up around 20%, IO/RC around 30% (the rest split between IO and TM). This mix of salts would appear to provide some natural ocean bacteria from RS along with a source of organics (vitamins/WHY) from RC, which theoretically would provide nourishment (carbon source) for said bacteria. Apparently, every time I do a water change the system gets a nice flush of bacteria and likely explains why my fresh salt mix turns slightly milky after just a few short days in it's mixing container.
What makes this hobby so facinating (besides it's complexity) is that one comment or tidbit of information can lead to those "Aha" moments that have been right under ones nose all the while
Appologies for going somewhat off-topic, but now I have to think about if/how this contributes to having consistent '0' NO3 and PO4 (Salifert) in my 'naturally filtered' system.
Nano,
Nothing works in a vacum. The complexities of biochemistry was summarized for me in a conversation that I had with Randy Holmes Farley.
"We put a man on the moon 50 years ago, yet we can not cure cancer."
Also, you reminded me about differrent roles of bacteria and how some become dominant in your recent post on "A microbiologist perspective on carbon dosing".
In a discussion with the OP of that thread, I summarized my philosophy on reef keeping. It is all about nutrient recycling. Contrary to exporting nutrients, I want my nutrient sink to be something desirable like coral and fish biomass.
That is why I choose to be skimmerless and to carbon dose.
Nano sapiens
New member
That is very true and especially so for complex, living systems.
Just a few of my own thoughts, but I think the subject of 'scale' comes into play here. With a very large volume of water and a relatively small biomass there is typically no problem with sequestering nutrients as biomass. Even if some of the biomass dies, the effects of dillusion would help ensure that the system can cope with the suddenly available nutrient influx. From the opposite end of the spectrum, namely small water volume/large biomass, the perspective shifts to more of a slow/steady biomass accumulation and a necessary exportation of excess nutrients (removal of excess food particles/detritus/bacteria, macro algae, excess coral growth, etc.). Die off can much more easily overwhelm such a system resulting in a 'crash' should nutrients become excessive.
The old Moody Blues album title 'A Question of Balance' seems apropos
Ralph.
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Nano sapiens
New member
You are welcome. For further consideration:
1. Using multiple salt mixes together provides a dillution effect should one of those mixes be 'off'.
2. Using multiple salt mixes together has the potential to 'even out' element excesses or deficiencies.
"A Question of Balance"
"A Question of Balance"
You touched a memory with that Moody Blues album. In 1971 after four combat tours in Vietnam/Cambodia I wasn't fit to be around human beings, when I returned home. Both of my younger brothers were hippies and flower children. Gerald introduced me to that album as I tried to make sense of an insane world.
I found serenity in the theme which described the cycle of life beginning with
"First the Dawn".
The only connection this post has with the thread is "first the bacteria".
"A Question of Balance"
That is very true and especially so for complex, living systems.
Just a few of my own thoughts, but I think the subject of 'scale' comes into play here. With a very large volume of water and a relatively small biomass there is typically no problem with sequestering nutrients as biomass. Even if some of the biomass dies, the effects of dillusion would help ensure that the system can cope with the suddenly available nutrient influx. From the opposite end of the spectrum, namely small water volume/large biomass, the perspective shifts to more of a slow/steady biomass accumulation and a necessary exportation of excess nutrients (removal of excess food particles/detritus/bacteria, macro algae, excess coral growth, etc.). Die off can much more easily overwhelm such a system resulting in a 'crash' should nutrients become excessive.
The old Moody Blues album title 'A Question of Balance' seems apropos
Ralph.
You touched a memory with that Moody Blues album. In 1971 after four combat tours in Vietnam/Cambodia I wasn't fit to be around human beings, when I returned home. Both of my younger brothers were hippies and flower children. Gerald introduced me to that album as I tried to make sense of an insane world.
I found serenity in the theme which described the cycle of life beginning with
"First the Dawn".
The only connection this post has with the thread is "first the bacteria".
