Interested in Vodka dosing, have questions!

[lolgranny]

Evening everyone.

Ive been reading a bunch of info about Vodka dosing over these past few days. My brother has a tank and its not doing as well as it should. His Po4 readings are nearly 0.50 on a hanna meter and No3 are reading at 25ppm (Elos)

He has a good skimmer rated at double his water volume(100g) a DSB and LR that is about 2 years old. No algae, aside from some brown on his sand and walls. Corals are doing alright. Sps are browned out some are RTN/STN, LPS are happy, and polyps are out.

He keeps up with water changes. Alk / Ca/ Mg are all where they are at. I know hes using 0TDS water because he gets it from my house. Salinity is running around 1.025-1.026 (he also gets this from me)

Now the only thing i can think of from his Po4 / No3 being so high is either because his DBS is nasty and not "right" and hes over feeding. He was running GFO in a reactor and that was helping, but truthfully i think he got lazy and wasnt changing it out every 2-3 weeks so it was being exhausted and i told him to take it offline if hes not going to change it out.

Ive been reading :
http://www.melevsreef.com/vodka_dosing.html
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

and a article from Sonny, but he suggests using MB7 along with Vodka.

My question comes to this i guess,
Is it needed to dose MB7 along with Vodka or can vodka solely be used? From what i see on both the articles above it seems i can use JUST vodka and have excellent results, can i not?

I appreciate any help ahead of time. Im getting ahold of the concept a bit more as it interests me. GFO is expensive so if its a solid method i might have to try it on my sps tank, although its doing quite good at the moment.

Thanks again
Hope everyone has a nice holiday
Dave

 

[tmz]

Mb7 or other bacterial supplements are not needed when dosing organic carbon(vodka and or vinegar or other sources) and are unhelpful ,imo and experience. There will be plenty of naturally occuring bacteria.

 

[fishflorist]

I use vinegar and vodka,
as for MB7, it is not necessary , but it is not harmfull in my experience.

And why his tank have no algae growing , as he got such high NO3 and PO4 level ?

 

[lolgranny]

Mb7 or other bacterial supplements are not needed when dosing organic carbon(vodka and or vinegar or other sources) and are unhelpful ,imo and experience. There will be plenty of naturally occuring bacteria.

Thanks Tom

I use vinegar and vodka,
as for MB7, it is not necessary , but it is not harmfull in my experience.

And why his tank have no algae growing , as he got such high NO3 and PO4 level ?

How are u dosing the 2 together? Is Vinegar similar to the way you would go about dosing Vodka? Have you just tried Vodka rather then the two together?

Truthfully im not sure why he has no algae growth, i would think there would be some as well and there isnt. Powerheads are clean, some brown slime in the sump. Socks are changed out and cleaned daily, skimmer is cleaned i would hope on a regular basis. Ive tested many times so i know i didnt make a error, although sometimes things have a hicup. i might go over tomorrow and re test to make 100% sure. Either way i know they are higher then they should be. Brown corals and dying ones worry me. I know its not bugs so it has to be this. He tests his alk / ca every other day and they are staying in the correct levels so he says so i dont think that is the cause. Once again i will test this for myself if i go over, but hes been pretty good about keeping Ca at 420-440, Alk 8.4-8.8 with a dosing pump being dosed 4x through the day, and Mg at 1350. No major temp swings.

Figured i would try going a easier" route for him. See if it helps him out by teaching him and giving him something to look at / read kind of thing.

 

[fishflorist]

Hi Dave, I used to dose vodka only , very small dosage about 3ml/day in my 200G system. MB7 6drops daily. nitrate and PO4 at very low level.
Then I found that many people on RC , use vinegar or vinegar+vodka . So I switched to viniegar+vodka recently, very good too. Many people succeeded by doing this.

Notice that vinegar have 1/8 concentration carbon than in vodka. that means 1ml vodka = 8ml vinegar, when vodka is normally 40% and vinegar is 5% .

 

[lolgranny]

Hi Dave, I used to dose vodka only , very small dosage about 3ml/day in my 200G system. MB7 6drops daily. nitrate and PO4 at very low level.
Then I found that many people on RC , use vinegar or vinegar+vodka . So I switched to viniegar+vodka recently, very good too. Many people succeeded by doing this.

Notice that vinegar have 1/8 concentration carbon than in vodka. that means 1ml vodka = 8ml vinegar, when vodka is normally 40% and vinegar is 5% .

Are you having better results with the 2 rather then just vodka? I appreciate the insight! I will have to look into this more!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Eveyone has their own recipe. I dose vinegar only. I find it causes less cyano in my tank than vodka. I never dosed the two together.

 

[JHawlz9989]

FWIW, I switched some time ago to a blend of the two from just vodka, and recently ditched the vodka altogether. It's easier for me to control the dose of vinegar since it is more diluted, and I have such a small system (20g). Also, there is literature out there that suggests vodka inhibits anaerobic bacteria growth, which is the primary reason I switched. I can't say one way or another if my tank is much better because it hasn't been that long, but I have a little more peace of mind.

Josh

 

[Steve Wright2]

I have been gradually switching from Vodka to Vinegar myself

my main reason was that I was using a BM- TM01 dosing pump, which is not 100% accurate and only dosing 3 mils of Vodka

switching initially to 2 mils Vodka and 8 mils Vinegar meant the dosing pump could divide the 8 into 8 doses (where as 2 mils of Vinegar was going to be 2 doses of 1 mils)

now on 16 mils of Vinegar and 1 mil of Vodka
I add the Vodka using a spare syringe and dose the Vinegar via the dosing pump in 8 doses of 2 mils per day at present

may move to 24 mils of vinegar shortly and then save the Vodka for other purposes

 

[tmz]

there is literature out there that suggests vodka inhibits anaerobic bacteria growth

Haven't seen any that clearly does that. Do you have a link.

I started with vodka about 5 years ago ,stopped for a while and then restarted 3yrs ago. After the first few months , people I trust noted better results in minimizing cyano with vinegar. I had a little patchy cyano in one tank ,so I switched 8ml of the 34 ml vodka dose to 64ml vinegar and it abated. I tried to go another increment and it returned. I reckoned my bacteria were settled in with the vodka and have maintained the dose at 26ml vodka and 64 ml vinegar for 600 gallons since.
I like to bolus dose; it suits my routine. . There is some literature suggesting bolus dosing encourages more anaerobic activity and consequent NO3 reduction to N2 nitrogen gas. It's safer to bolus vodka as it does not rapidly drop ph like vinegar does. Both affect ph about the same longterm but the effect with vinegar is precpitous in the short term.
Neither vodka nor vinegar contirbute monomers(sugars) as polymers carbohydrates including pellets do. Sugar hurts my corals so I stay away from it and anything that will produce it during the breakdown processes.

I'd like to know if those doing just vinegar observe good growth in lps particularly caulastrea and euphylia over a year or so.These corals are doing well in my system and have for the 3 yrs but not growing like they used to before dosing .. I'm thinking about trying more vinegar in lieu of some of more of the vodka but things have been doing so well over the last 3 yrs that I'm relcutant to experiment at present.

So, I don't really know whether a mix of vodka and vinegar is any better or worse than all vinegar all things considerded for my aquarium. If I were starting anew , I'd probably go vinegar first and if after a month or two NO3 reduction proved inadequate , I'd consider bolus dosing a bit of vodka too.

 

[Reefflections]

When carbon dosing as for Vodka/Vinegar,is it really that important having a low Alk as for 8?Is this really for folks having just SPS corals?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think that folks creating ULNS systems (ultra low nutrient systems, like zeovit) through any means may have that issue with some SPS corals, but just organic carbon dosing is not likely to be a problem with higher alk, especially if you do not have SPS.

 

[Reefflections]

Thanks Randy,
I know you like to use Vinegar for dosing,especially with cyno issues.Is this common for Cyno?When my lights are off at night.The Cyno almost seems to disappear on the sand bed.Then lights are on all day,all hell brakes out.I see the true picture.I don't have a Ref.for any marco algae.I'm limited on space.I have 200 gallon system up to 30 mil per day Vinegar.At what point is a max dosage.I know all systems run different.Or should keep increase till Cyno disappears,than that would be my Max. dosage for my system?Then after that my regular dosage from there on would be half that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, cyano does rapidly come back during the day in some cases.

I would add GFO into your methods to try to deal with the cyano, if you are not already using it.

 

[tmz]

When carbon dosing as for Vodka/Vinegar,is it really that important having a low Alk as for 8?Is this really for folks having just SPS corals?

Not in my experience with a mixed reef /sps dominant. 8.9 to 9.6 dkh works very well, I've also had it in the 10s. However, there is some nitrate 0.2ppm and phosphate <0.5ppm available .
I use gfo along with the carbon dosing and almost never see even small amounts of cyano anymore. A very small amount of nuisance miroalgae pops up from time to time but not in the dispalys .

 

[lolgranny]

This is awesome info, i appreciate all the input guys!

I think i will go the Vinegar route to start. Now the questions i have:

What brand / type Vinegar?
Do i take my carbon / gfo offline?
Do i continue with my weekly 10% water changes?
Do i dose just like i would Vodka, but its 8x's the amount of vodka. 1ml Vodka-8ml Vinegar
Any good readings on Vinegar?

Thanks again guys!
Dave

 

[lolgranny]

Also, once i get to my maintenance level with the Vinegar would it be ok to put it on a dosing pump such as the Bubble magus doser? Would you feel safe doing so or not?

I noticed steve is using it, Steve are you having any issues with it?

Thank you guys
and
Merry Christmas! Hope Santa brings you all a bunch of goodies!

 

[JHawlz9989]

there is literature out there that suggests vodka inhibits anaerobic bacteria growth

Haven't seen any that clearly does that. Do you have a link.

I guess inhibit would be the incorrect word. I should have used "does not encourage." My information was the discussion we had on anammox bacteria and biochemistry. My source of information is Cliff, so it is a little second-hand. From it:

Most data available regarding nutrient reduction comes from waste fresh water treatment studies. There have been a few studies completed involving seawater waste removal which seems to follow suit with the freshwater studies.

This article provides a good comparison of anaerobic vs aerobic bacterial nutrient break-down for fresh water:

ANAEROBIC VERSUS AEROBIC TREATMENT IN THE U.S.A.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...38XFDQ&usg=AFQjCNGK4e1Hel6TR-HX8jzpBnoVaaDE3Q

From the graphs in this article, anaerobic break-down is the winner as far as cost and provides the best nutrient break-down (significantly lower than aerobic alone and the combo of the two). The chemical pathways for reduction seem to be the most efficient IMHO using anaerobic methods. From the graphs the anaerobic bacteria provide the lowest final nutrient levels.

The studies I have read indicate that ethanol will inhibit the anaerobic bacteria which is not a good thing IMHO. On the other hand acetate (vinegar) will increase growth rates of both anaerobic and aerobic bacteria which is a win, win IMHO. So to answer your question, IMHO vinegar alone may be the clear winner based on what info I have read.

Vinegar is the cheapest carbon source as well, which makes it a winner as far as long term costs. The biopellets are just too expensive at this point and I see no need for their use. Vodka is more expensive than vinegar.

Sorry for the mischaracterization.

Josh

 

[HighlandReefer]

Yet another study with interesting results completed in the wastewater magement research stating the effects of ethanol vs acetate:

Propionate Oxidation by and Methanol Inhibition of Anaerobic Ammonium-Oxidizing Bacteria

http://aem.asm.org/content/71/2/1066.full

This link provides the complete article for those interested.


From it:

"DISCUSSION

The present study describes the effects of organic compounds on anaerobic ammonium-oxidizing bacteria. The topic is relevant to the microbiological investigation of these bacteria and their application in wastewater treatment. Anammox bacteria have a low growth rate and yield and are difficult to cultivate, and their isolation in pure culture has been unsuccessful. Knowledge of the potential for mixotrophic growth might facilitate cultivation and microbiological study in the future (29). In wastewater treatment, it is important to know the responses of anammox bacteria to the presence of organic compounds because the target wastewaters sometimes contain organic acids and alcohols resulting from incomplete or suboptimal fermentation (1, 3, 15, 16, 23, 34). The present study has documented that organic compounds can both inhibit and be converted by anammox bacteria.

The results clearly show that the exposure of anammox bacteria to alcohols, methanol in particular, should be prevented under all circumstances. Even low concentrations of methanol lead to the immediate, complete, and irreversible inhibition of the anammox process. In practice, this would mean that an anammox reactor would have to be restarted from scratch, which takes at least 100 to 200 days if no anammox seed is available (1, 15, 16, 34). This observation is highly relevant, because methanol is often used to remove nitrate in postdenitrification or to compensate for pH effects in partial nitrification (4, 5). A possible explanation for methanol inhibition is the potential conversion of methanol to formaldehyde by the anammox enzyme hydroxylamine oxidoreductase (18). Formaldehyde destroys enzyme activity by irreversibly cross-linking the peptide chains (12).

Propionate and potentially acetate were shown to be substrates for anammox bacteria. Anammox bacteria oxidized propionate to CO2 with nitrate and/or nitrite as the electron acceptor. In future studies, addition of [13C]acetate or [14C]acetate to prolonged reactor experiments must be considered in order to document the fate of acetate (24). The present study focused on propionate."

 

[HighlandReefer]

Adaptation of a freshwater anammox population to high salinity wastewater

Boran Kartala, Mariana Kolevab, Roumen Arsovb, Wouter van der Starc, Mike S.M. Jettena, c, Marc Strousa, ,

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168165606004202


Abstract

For the successful application of anaerobic ammonium oxidation (anammox) in wastewater practice it is important to know how to seed new anammox reactors with biomass from existing reactors. In this study, a new high salinity anammox reactor was inoculated with biomass from a freshwater system. The changes in activity and population shifts were monitored. It was shown that freshwater anammox bacteria could adapt to salt concentrations as high as 30 g l−1 provided the salt concentration was gradually increased. Higher salt concentrations reversibly inhibited anammox bacteria. The nitrogen removal efficiency and maximum anammox activity of the salt adapted sludge was very similar to the reference freshwater sludge. Fluorescence in situ hybridization analysis revealed that the freshwater anammox species Candidatus "œKuenenia stuttgartiensis" was the dominant in both salt adapted sludge and freshwater sludge. These results show that gradual adaptation may be the key to successful seeding of anammox bioreactors.