Interesting Greener Is Not Better

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I find it amazing how some on this forum can be critical and juge someone over failed govenmental policy and activism that stems from the 70's to now. Like we have any say in all the crap that either side is spewing out? All the little media snipits, articles, blogs, and discussions about global warming, climate cooling/warming, carbon foot print etc, just make me sick. We need to take care of our home land now and shore up our economy. You all know damn well that you'll do anything to keep what you have created, as well as protect your family. That's not greed that's just plain survival and protection as a father/provider. Anyone that says they will give up this or that (their job, their house for the sake of cooling the planet or being green) for their family is lying through their teeth. No one knows me from adam and I yet I have been termed the "greedy bas?!@#d". Actually, I'm quite the opposite. I pay my taxes, give to charity, donate my time and money to my church and charity, give back to my employees - often, practice good reefkeeping (see my note below about giving my corals away), work to cut my energy consumption. I have replaced all the incandescent light bulbs in my house with compact flourescents. My wife does not use plastic bags to bag our groceries, we recycle all our cans, bottles, and glass and even run our appliances in the late evening to do our part. My AC has the alternate power chip where the utility can shut my AC off in case of power emergency. I believe most that criticized me for my comment "Drill now pay less" missed my fist post where I noted that I just gave up my 4,000 gal pond of 18 years (try filling in that hole!) to cut my power and water usage and I'm activly pursuing solar for my home (which is an investment in clean technology, since payback is over 10 years still). I also drive a Haundi Alantra which gets 30 miles to the gallon. My family is NOT in the oli business or any such sort of an oil exec. My mom simply owns property with oil wells on it along with the mineral drilling rights. While the lack of pumping my mom's wells is somewhat cost related, most is environmental impact issues, which are false and unfounded. I have also given away (yes that's given away) some of my cherry corals to people in the So Cal area each month for some time now. While I am coservative, I'm not naive to believe we can drill out of the mess we are in. We need to do both, tap our resources to eliminate purchasing large percenage of our oil from Opec, building nuclear plants, while developing clean technologies. One thing that no one can answer, is when will all the clean technology be on line to sustain our economy and way of life, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? It's not here right now and not cost effective or we'd be doing it. It's just like the ethanol, sounds like a good idea till you impact the world food supply and impact rivers with nitrogren from growing only super corn! Oops! Anyway, my beliefs are consistent and strong, based on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! And oh yes, I would work in a coal mine, nuclear plant, McDonalds, Sewer plant etc to take care of my family. I even cleaned fish crap from fish ponds for a living several years back so don't preach at me about what I won't do! Regardless of what is said here, I consider myself very blessed with all that I have and very successful, and it's not wholy from the $$ I make, it's from having family and friends and liberty!
 
I totally agree Paul... Government dictating isn't good... it's all become to complicated for it to even try to manage. They're better at setting an "agenda" and letting the markets do the rest.

Just fyi, in many countries, that $10/hr "temporary" job is considered a respectable career. Waiters or custodial for example are very respected in other countries - but that's just 2 examples.

"I believe that most of gaps that exist are due to choices that the people have made over their life" - totally agree... Americans for the most part have been spoiled... I think the next generation grew up in prosperity with minimal work and have taken for granted quite a lot. Though college attendance is up, standards are lower. Heck, U. of Phoenix is on the stock market and is the largest university!

Personally... I think globalization is great, but I think that's equally what's done the middle class in (and the main thing the Gov. should be "watching" better I think). When I worked for HP, I saw jobs shipped to India. There's just no way we can compete against those without health insurance, riding a bicycle and making $10 a day. I told my current boss at my current firm that story and he said "well, I think you need to learn how to be competitive for $10 a day then" - wow is all I could think as I calculated his pay to be around $50/hr. Basically, I think if we're held to some standards (environmental pollution, reef protection, care for animals, Medicare type expenses, social sec. etc.), our foreign competition should also be and that's what the Govt. should kind of watch.
 
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"One thing that no one can answer, is when will all the clean technology be on line to sustain our economy and way of life, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? "

that's what's likely to be decided over the next 5 yrs since it's a hot topic. It's sadly dividing this country in half =(

When will they be online? No matter what's selected, it will be 10+ yrs before we begin to see any impact. Nuclear, solar, wind, thermal, combos etc. They need to be approved, funded, planned etc. I think the "drill/nuclear" ideas would be jumped on by a lot more people if they could impact us within a year or significantly (i.e. $2 at the pump, but instead it's just a few pennies). Since none of the sources can fix us within 1-2 yrs, a debate/power struggle is happening since we're basically setting the energy "agenda" for the next 30 yrs now.

The "greed" word from above also relates. If it were completely free for the market to decide, nuclear/coal/oil would win since their pockets are already thick and they could smother the market like Microsoft. Any alternatives would need major support.

so, it's like the "rich status quo and proven" kids that smoke vs "the upcoming, trendy new kid on the block with a great idea, but no money or proven business model/technology"

bleh. It's almost a generation gap description lol
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949031#post12949031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef

When will they be online? No matter what's selected, it will be 10+ yrs before we begin to see any impact.

South Texas Nuclear power plant has applied for licenses for 2 new reactors last year. The first applications for new reactors in the US in 29 years, more will follow suit I'm sure. They expect them to be online in 2014. And hey it's an investor owned company, they can pay for them without the government raising taxes....shocking!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947477#post12947477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
Wake up and realize you're being duped.

Okay go ahead and tell me who I'm being duped by, I love a good conspiracy theory. Especially if it involves evil corporations. BTW, can you specify the income range that you would consider middle class for me?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12948687#post12948687 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul_PSU
I believe that most of gaps that exist are due to choices that the people have made over their life. You want more money, work harder and smarter. If you don't want to further your education or skills then you better get accustom to making $10 an hour. Then again some jobs are not meant to be life long jobs to raise a family on.
Oh, so it's simply a matter of working harder and smarter is it? Try to become a billionaire without first being a millionaire. There are MILLIONS of smart, hard working people in the world that have SQUAT to show for it. I don't have a problem with people being successful and making $500,000 a year. It's when they make millions and billions a year. It's not a problem when it's a handful of people, but as of the year 2000, 1% of the population owned 40% of the wealth. Do you think that's fair? There are many, many jobs in this world that need to be done, don't you think they should be fairly compensated? Do you think they are being fairly compensated when there is so much money moving up the chain?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12948687#post12948687 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul_PSU
why don't you look up the % of taxes that the top 5% pays to the government also.
The top 5% pay 50% of the taxes, but they also own about 60% of the wealth, so excuse me while I search for the world's tiniest violin. Real wages have stagnated during the last 30 years for the majority of Americans while the super rich are, as Warren Buffett would say, on a space ship. Buffett want higher taxes for the rich What do you have to say about that? Here's another kick in the pants: Buffett's secretary pays more taxes than him
 
Hmmm... so Buffet wants people like him to pay more taxes but his secretary pays higher taxes than him.

Maybe someone should inform Buffet that he can voluntarily pay more taxes. The IRS won't turn down his check. He's a pretty smart guy so he probably already knows that which means he doesn't actually want to pay more taxes.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949350#post12949350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
BTW, can you specify the income range that you would consider middle class for me?
 
i think Buffet's point is that the system is messed up and not that he wants to pay more taxes.

i'd be willing to pay more taxes if it would help others or my future children. to me, it's no different than donating. I need to see the $ going somewhere useful.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949479#post12949479 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
Hmmm... so Buffet wants people like him to pay more taxes but his secretary pays higher taxes than him.

Maybe someone should inform Buffet that he can voluntarily pay more taxes. The IRS won't turn down his check. He's a pretty smart guy so he probably already knows that which means he doesn't actually want to pay more taxes.
He's donating his entire fortune to charity. It amazes me that you think this inequality is the way to run a society.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949510#post12949510 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
It amazes me that you think this inequality is the way to run a society.

It's called capatilism. It seems to work pretty good. I'm willing to change my mind if you can show me some examples of socialist countries that have provided a better life for their citizens than the good ole USA.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949536#post12949536 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
It's called capatilism. It seems to work pretty good. I'm willing to change my mind if you can show me some examples of socialist countries that have provided a better life for their citizens than the good ole USA.
Ummm, you can be socialist and still have a free market. But to answer your question, plenty of socialist countries consistently rank higher than the US for quality of life. link
 
Well I have to say a big congrats to everyone. Despite everyone having different views (and probably not changing from them) this thread has stayed open. Is this a record for any thread mentioning climate change?

I guess I would support nuclear more if someone could point why it is better than solar thermal or hot rock? One thing to consider with coal, nuclear and gas is that the price to supply the fuel is increasing. The sun is there for free, and will be there for a very long time. Solar just seems a better solution to me. I do not know of any drawbacks, but I am happy to listen if there are some that I have missed.

From memory there are no active uranium mines in the USA? wouldn't this mean dependence on foreign sources until these are back up and running?

For the record, there is no way in hell you would find me in a coal mine, uranium mine, nuclear power plant or especially a coal fired power plant. But all those I would prefer to working in mcdonalds.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949536#post12949536 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
It's called capatilism. It seems to work pretty good.
It's also turning our democracy into an oligarchy.
 
Gees, hasn't history already proved that socialism doesn't work? Why yes it has! So does somebody here on RC want to redistribute their custom 215 gallon with all the bells and whistles to me? I only have a 54 but want a 215! It's just not fare that some has a larger tank with more $$ into it! I know, let's take all the tanks represented here on RC and redistribute 3 gallon nanos to everyone! This way we're all equal. And by the way, you can no longer have a salt water, corals, live rock or fish in you new 3 gallon nano because the planet is warming.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949620#post12949620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bbehring
Gees, hasn't history already proved that socialism doesn't work? Why yes it has!
Socialism works just fine, people tend to enjoy healthcare and a middle class. Communism doesn't work, and neither does unrestricted capitalism.
 
" fairly compensated?"
I'm sure you will tell us what is fair.

"Real wages have stagnated during the last 30 years for the majority of Americans"

I seem to get raises every year. I am making more this year than I did the year before. But I guess I should worry about what your making and everyone else on the forum is making. Now I will break out the violin.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949620#post12949620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bbehring
I know, let's take all the tanks represented here on RC and redistribute 3 gallon nanos to everyone! This way we're all equal.

LOL, a nice example.

Hippie - Still waiting on those examples of successful socialist countries. You know, the ones that work just fine :). Oh, and your definition of middle class in terms of income not "percentage of wealth".
 
Well I for one worked my a$$ off to get out of the middle class! It can be done! and no, nothing was ever given to me, I worked hard and earned it! I like Paul_PSU, made more money last year and will prolly edge that up another 10% this year. So which one of you greenies spent your stimulus check to stimulate the economy? I didn't get one, but took my bonus and put in a 50k patio, employing several people for 3 weeks! I'm doing my part!
 
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