Interesting Greener Is Not Better

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949740#post12949740 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
Hippie - Still waiting on those examples of successful socialist countries. You know, the ones that work just fine . Oh, and your definition of middle class in terms of income not "percentage of wealth".

I meant to say socialist programs, not full blown socialism (like most of Europe, not China), just to be clear. Capitalism is the best type of economy, but not unrestricted. There needs to be socialist programs so that our societies don't turn into a completely inhuman rat race. Completely unrestricted capitalism will create one person who own everything, and we are seeing something close to that happening now.

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949711#post12949711 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul_PSU
" fairly compensated?"
I'm sure you will tell us what is fair.

"Real wages have stagnated during the last 30 years for the majority of Americans"

I seem to get raises every year. I am making more this year than I did the year before. But I guess I should worry about what your making and everyone else on the forum is making. Now I will break out the violin.

Of course each person will make more, hopefully, every year because of raises, but the median income has been pretty much flat for the last 30 years compared to how much our economy has grown and how much more the top 1% has seen their income grow.

 

[buck50bmg]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949260#post12949260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
South Texas Nuclear power plant has applied for licenses for 2 new reactors last year. The first applications for new reactors in the US in 29 years, more will follow suit I'm sure. They expect them to be online in 2014. And hey it's an investor owned company, they can pay for them without the government raising taxes....shocking!

Sooner I would think. I work down there all the time. They went with the BWR design and not the PWR. S its alot faster to build. Ahhhhhh Bay City Texas.....the middle of nowhere..

 

[buck50bmg]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949591#post12949591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
Ummm, you can be socialist and still have a free market. But to answer your question, plenty of socialist countries consistently rank higher than the US for quality of life. link

Wow you just went too far there..... This is the USA, read the constitution, Bill of rights, federalist papers.....

This is where YOU are the minority. We are a Republic, and will always be. Why would we regress to socialism?

Once you realize the fact you are in the USA and what it is, then you can have a better idea of whats going on.

 

[buck50bmg]

From memory there are no active uranium mines in the USA? wouldn't this mean dependence on foreign sources until these are back up and running?

Yes there are uranium mines in the USA. We get all of our fuel from those mines. So its good for our economy.

As for nuclear fuel costing too much.... Well its more cost effective than coal or even solar at this point. Think of the energy.... Each pencil sized eraser fuel pellet that is only 5% uranium, has the same power as 10 tons of coal. So each fuel rod has about 600 pellets or 6000 tons of coal. Each fuel assembly has 324 fuel rods. So one fuel assembly has the same energy as 1,944,000 tons of coal. Now here is where it gets really cost effective.....

A normal reactor core has 193 fuel assembles....so at 1,944,000 tons of coal per fuel assembly....would be 381,024,000 tons of coal for the entire core.

So a full reactor core is 381,024,000 tons of coal, it emits zero emissions and zero pollution and that core lasts for 4.5 years!

Yes the assembly has to be stored for many years but thats easy and safe. Alot less of a hazard than burning that much coal!!!

Just something to think about.

 

[scottras]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12950367#post12950367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by buck50bmg
Yes there are uranium mines in the USA. We get all of our fuel from those mines. So its good for our economy.

As for nuclear fuel costing too much.... Well its more cost effective than coal or even solar at this point. Think of the energy.... Each pencil sized eraser fuel pellet that is only 5% uranium, has the same power as 10 tons of coal. So each fuel rod has about 600 pellets or 6000 tons of coal. Each fuel assembly has 324 fuel rods. So one fuel assembly has the same energy as 1,944,000 tons of coal. Now here is where it gets really cost effective.....

A normal reactor core has 193 fuel assembles....so at 1,944,000 tons of coal per fuel assembly....would be 381,024,000 tons of coal for the entire core.

So a full reactor core is 381,024,000 tons of coal, it emits zero emissions and zero pollution and that core lasts for 4.5 years!

Yes the assembly has to be stored for many years but thats easy and safe. Alot less of a hazard than burning that much coal!!!

Just something to think about.

Cheers for the reply.

I didn't think they were active, but after a little searching they are. I think you will find that most uranium used in the USA is imported.

Are you sure of the cost effectiveness of nuclear? I know coal is the cheapest by far. Then nuclear, then solar. This will change in the future. Both nuclear and coal rely on fossil fuels though.

Solar production doubles every 2 years and they will surpass nuclear and coal for cost effectiveness within several years.

I know what you are saying about the hazards of coal. There is far more radiation around coal power plants than nuclear.

 

[chrissreef]

"Real wages have stagnated during the last 30 years for the majority of Americans"

I seem to get raises every year. I am making more this year than I did the year before. But I guess I should worry about what your making and everyone else on the forum is making. Now I will break out the violin."

you must take into account inflation and other factors... wages haven't changed much - even if you take out the super rich and super poor outliers. (what good is a 6% raise if inflation is 3% and other expenses (gas, food, insurance, tax rates, utilities, housing etc.) go up 5-10%+?

 

[Paul_PSU]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12951012#post12951012 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
"Real wages have stagnated during the last 30 years for the majority of Americans"

I seem to get raises every year. I am making more this year than I did the year before. But I guess I should worry about what your making and everyone else on the forum is making. Now I will break out the violin."

you must take into account inflation... wages haven't changed much - even if you take out the super rich and super poor outliers.

I am taking into account inflation. I make much more money now than I did 5 years ago. I worked for a couple companies that became stagnant as far as wages. I didn't complain, I just left for a better paying position with another company. We have too many people in this country that have NOTHING to offer when they look for a job and then complain when they are working for lower wages. We have far too many people that think something is owed to them and somebody should pay them $19 an hour for an entry level position when they have NO SKILLS.

 

[buck50bmg]

Ok as for cheapness. When I was working at the coal mines, a ton of coal was going for around $50.00, 5 years ago.

So lets get the price of $381,024,000 tons of coal is $19,051,200,000

That core load with labor to refuel, runs about $200,000,000 and that's for the most expensive fuel we use. (1 million per assembly and Labor) and would cost 65,000,000 every 18 months for a refuel.

And thats to produce 1250 MWe continuous. The South Texas Project Plant has two units each producing 1250MWe for 2500MWe output.

So lets say a plant needs 10,000 tons per day or $500,000 worth of coal per day.

So a coal plant costs $500,000.00 per day in fuel for 500MWe to 800MWe at the most.

A Nuclear plant costs $65,000,000.00 every 18 months or $120,370.00 per day in fuel

so $34,666.00 per MWe for nuclear
or $60,000.00 per MWe for coal (thats for a 800MWe plant)

So $500,000.00 or $120,270.00 per day for fuel....
Lots of emissions or zero emissions.....
Dirty or clean....

You Decide....

 

[chrissreef]

<b>"I make much more money now than I did 5 years ago. I worked for a couple companies that became stagnant as far as wages. " </b>

I'm glad you're making more - the comments aren't blanket, just a majority - obviously there are some making more and some making less. You're a lucky one but you had to leave your job/company to achieve that. The whole "wages have remained stagnant" refer to the same jobs not increasing in wages - hopping around to "create" personal increases doesn't count.

Unfortunately small businesses are the bulk of the economy and they in particular have been stagnant. Heck, two friends of mine work their butt off at a fortune 500 firm (~150k) and they haven't received a raise the last two years =( Raises at my company are "ok" until you're a manager - nothing to celebrate over.

edit: I do agree - people in general think they're "owed" something. I think it's the result of being spoiled in the past. I think my children will grow up with less prosperity and have to "work" harder to achieve monitary success (esp. in a gobal economy). The next 2-3 decades will be interesting for sure! I wonder if the USA will be able to stay on top? hmmm

Buck50

don't forget the disposal costs! (just so the analysis is fair =)

I don't consider either "clean" as both have spent product. The "emission" part is true though.

 

[buck50bmg]

don't forget the disposal costs! (just so the analysis is fair =) I don't consider either "clean" as both have spent product. The "emission" part is true though.

As for the disposal costs.... taken care of years ago when Yucca was first conceived. The vast majority of Yucca is paid by and will be paid by the Nuclear Power Plants. All the Taxes and fees and the such the government throws at the plants now is what funds the disposal. So no issue there.

As for the spent product.... YOU CANT GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING!!!!

Your solar will use and produce a lot of waste, there is always faulty or flawed product, so silicon doped with arsine, phosphine, and hydrogen. I know that as well, I worked for Intel. The MOCVD process is nasty, and if there were a leak of any of the gasses, your talking a huge health risk. I was at Fab 18 in Israel in 2000 and we had to evacuate 3 times in 2 months because of arsenic being released, 4 people were hospitalized.

Anyway its an imperfect world and energy takes work to convert it to a form we can use. Heck I would love to be able to find the magic bullet....but for now we need to show action and not words.
You can find holes in every technology out there.

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12950334#post12950334 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by buck50bmg
Wow you just went too far there..... This is the USA, read the constitution, Bill of rights, federalist papers.....

This is where YOU are the minority. We are a Republic, and will always be. Why would we regress to socialism?

Once you realize the fact you are in the USA and what it is, then you can have a better idea of whats going on.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12950133#post12950133 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
I meant to say socialist programs, not full blown socialism (like most of Europe, not China), just to be clear. Capitalism is the best type of economy, but not unrestricted. There needs to be socialist programs so that our societies don't turn into a completely inhuman rat race. Completely unrestricted capitalism will create one person who own everything, and we are seeing something close to that happening now.

I already said that I meant socialist programs, not complete socialism. You realize we already have socialist programs in the US, right?

 

[bbehring]

I haven't had to leave my company to make more $$. I've been working at the same company (mine) for 22 years. Here's to capitalism, innovation, providing good solid customer service and always making more money! Cheers!

Edit: and low taxes! Thank You Bush!

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12951069#post12951069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul_PSU
I am taking into account inflation. I make much more money now than I did 5 years ago. I worked for a couple companies that became stagnant as far as wages. I didn't complain, I just left for a better paying position with another company. We have too many people in this country that have NOTHING to offer when they look for a job and then complain when they are working for lower wages. We have far too many people that think something is owed to them and somebody should pay them $19 an hour for an entry level position when they have NO SKILLS.

You don't understand median income vs your personal income, do you? Maybe you'll believe Buffett

 

[RichardS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949407#post12949407 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell

Buffett want higher taxes for the rich What do you have to say about that?

I like the part where Buffet says "indeed far more people who die recieve a large tax benefit".

 

[buck50bmg]

Can we get back to the subject of the forum? Sorry I started a sidetrack.

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12952050#post12952050 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bbehring
I haven't had to leave my company to make more $$. I've been working at the same company (mine) for 22 years. Here's to capitalism, innovation, providing good solid customer service and always making more money! Cheers!

Edit: and low taxes! Thank You Bush!

Dude, nobody is attacking capitalism or your ability to be successful, it's the inhuman rise of the super rich 1-2%. Society will revolt after too many years under these conditions, then we'll see how you feel about it. Maybe you think there should be more inequality? Do you want the top 2% owning 80% of the wealth? How about 90%? How will that benefit this country? How is that better than communism, where the state owns everything? When everything is privatized, how does that empower the average citizen (you)? Try protesting outside a private business and you can be arrested. Do it in front of a government building, and it's protected. The point I'm trying to make is that this country is on a path that is as unsustainable as communism and the continued reliance on fossil fuels.

 

[onebadman]

Under capitalism,REAL capitalism the govt isn't involved in deciding how wealth gets distributed.The market decides.If it ends up that 2% own 80% that's because they deserve it!Our present system is so far removed from the capitalist model that I'm hesitant to even use the word capitalism when referring to the U.S.Under every other economic system wealth is distributed through force or threat of force, of one kind or another.Capitalism allows us to vote with our money.We need to get the govt. out of our lives and make them do their proper job which is protecting our rights,including our right to earn astronomical amounts of money without being told we should feel guilty about it.

 

[chrissreef]

"because they deserve it!"

first, congrats on creating a username just to respond to this thread =) because they "deserve it" - are you serious? the CEO that closes a factory with 500+ workers and ships them to China "deserves" his $10 million bonus? you speak like all super rich "struggled" to get where they are and the less fortunate owe them.

"deserve" - to merit, be qualified for, or have a claim to (reward, assistance, punishment, etc.) because of actions, qualities, or situation

You mentioned protecting our rights... what rights are those if 2% own everything? if no one can afford food, gas, a roof over their head, health insurance... but that 1 super rich person can. If you believe the government is truly there to protect the rights of everyone, then that protection involves some balance... or "social" type programs/efforts to prevent complete poverty. Think about monopolies - if the government wasn't around, hundreds of thousands of businesses wouldn't be around - Walmart, Microsoft etc. would dominate. No one would even be able to try to compete. Not much difference between that and a communist state for the average joe.

<b>Can we get back to the subject of the forum? Sorry I started a sidetrack. </b>

whatever! I started it! hehe... ok, so what "can" we agree on?

reducing? reusing? recycling? a combo of energy sources instead of 1 "it" solution? that humans are impacting the planets natural environments to "some" degree in a negative way - just not sure to "what" degree? that despite human nature of self gratification, a majority of us feel our impact on the environment should at least be balanced and not completely wasteful? that we're not perfect? that future generations need to be protected by our decisions?

anything?

 

[billsreef]

Looks like it's time to close this one.