interpreting Triton test results

[Eyore]

Well, we'll see how well the Triton testing holds up over time. We've seen other testing results that seemed fairly iffy, so I would be cautious about making changes.

tbh, i am not entirely 100% on this either way

on hlpc i saw some ridiculous figures, figures for elevated sodium and chloride for example that were so far past anything plausable imo (talking 40-45 ppt implied for reefers that imo were beyond this kind of error (not to mention saturated water)

when the icp came in around 12 months ago initially figures didnt seem any better, again i saw sodium figures implying 40ppt plus salinity, or 3 or 4 years worth of 2 part withput water changes, when neither was true. I got into a lot of trouble on local forums for stating this, to a point now when triton is mentioned nobody actually reads what i post, i just get wild accusations flying my way

however, having seen near all icp results published, and had some done myself, i have to say it is consistent with my methods (which are pretty anal tbf) in terms of sodium sulphate etc, alterations i have made in terms of iodine strontium etc, so far are consistent.

over here in the UK i see nothing wrong, i trust it, i do bot know if things are any differant in the us

the icp i have to say, though i dont think it can tell you everything, and some of what it does tell you should be taken with a pinch of salt, is imo a great thing (though the rest of truton is still selling someyhing old as new)

 

[bbaz123456]

I have been slowly adding NaCl and Kcl. I can not attest to the accuracy of the triton test for the majority of the elements but the for what I can test they were spot on. Mag, cal, Po4 and now Na.
For me it was worth every penny to get the test done and I will likely get it every six months or so just for peace of mind, unless it is proven to be unreliable by somebody else.
Chances are that I would have continued on using my flawed salinity testing for many more years if I would not have had this test and you guys to help figure that out and offer advice. So thank you for your time and input!

 

[Eyore]

good grief, your not doing as i say over these guys are you? lol

all i say is what i would do

i would though have calculated out potassium first, which i would then back up with testing
i would also calculate out the amount of nacl first too to correct the sodium deficency (in terms of value not use) and back this up with accurate salinity readings

depending on the amount needed i would probably have built a stock solution of nacl kcl mix which i would have added over the course of a month or 2 (while testing) to atu or a bit at a time into the weir (ie a litre)

 

[bbaz123456]

I have actually been doing a combination of the two. I have added about 25% saltwater to my top off and been doing a slow drip of nacl and Kcl.
I have taken the suggestions from everybody into account and had to decide on my own what to do.
Of course I did not read your post and jump into your suggestion. You do sound like you know what you are talking about but I obviously do not know you or any of your credentials. For all I know you could be some 16 year old punk trying to get me to poison all of my fish! Ha
Therefore Jonathon, Randy, and Triton's recommendations carry a bit more weight, but yours also makes sense to me.
Triton suggested to dose straight Na and K(what they sell) over 7 days

 

[bbaz123456]

I would top off with saltwater or part saltwater, part RO/DI for a while, and let evaporation do the job. That should be more gentle on the animals. Do you have a good estimate of the water volume and the amount of evaporation per day?

I am working with the number of 2400 gallons. I have came up with anywhere from 2400-2900 but figured I should stick with the low number. My math gets a little hairy when calculating odd shaped tanks, half full rubbermaid troughs and unknown amounts of rock.
Evap has been about 13 gallons a day.

 

[Eyore]

I have actually been doing a combination of the two. I have added about 25% saltwater to my top off and been doing a slow drip of nacl and Kcl.
I have taken the suggestions from everybody into account and had to decide on my own what to do.
Of course I did not read your post and jump into your suggestion. You do sound like you know what you are talking about but I obviously do not know you or any of your credentials. For all I know you could be some 16 year old punk trying to get me to poison all of my fish! Ha
Therefore Jonathon, Randy, and Triton's recommendations carry a bit more weight, but yours also makes sense to me.
Triton suggested to dose straight Na and K(what they sell) over 7 days

lol 38 year old bricklayer

good to know you calculated

 

[Eyore]

roughly in the middle of those 2 figures in us gallins is 10000 litres, which is an easy figure to play with

10000 litres contains 350kg of salts
na should make up 106.4 of this but is 84.25 kg according to icp
meaning you need 22.15 kg of sodium
22.15 ÷22.99x 58.44= 56.3 kg of nacl

potassium is 110 mg/l low x 10000= 1.1kg of potassium

1.1÷ 39.1x 74.55= 2.1 kg kcl

(bit abbreviated)

edit

you can see that is a salinity rise of 5.84ppt, which is maybe about right

for me i would drip a 25l gerry can with 1kg of nacl in per day for the next 7 weeks, for the first 3 weeks i would slip 100g of kcl in as well per day

no point rushing

 

[bertoni]

With 13g of evaporation per day, I'd just top off with saltwater for a while, personally. No need to go less concentrated.

 

[ca1ore]

So, got my Triton results back today, and am pleasantly surprised that things looked pretty god, though Copper was detected (at 2.40), molybdenum deviating, and bromide and lithium strongly deviating. I use regular IO salt and RODI at TDS = 0

What's the prevailing wisdom about what to do abouth these things? I run poly filters, so I am surprised there is any copper. I does molybdenum, so perhaps that needs to stop. But bromide and lithium ...... Haven't the foggiest.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wouldn't do anything about the "usual" elevated levels of bromide and lithium that most of us see. Comes with most salt mixes, I think.

Your copper is also reasonably low that you may not need to act.

 

[ca1ore]

Right-O Randy, thanks. Was rather expecting some dodgy numbers because I have had some SPS die off of late, and for reasons that had been, and still remain, elusive.

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

I wouldn't do anything about the "usual" elevated levels of bromide and lithium that most of us see. Comes with most salt mixes, I think.

Your copper is also reasonably low that you may not need to act.

I would have to disagree.

I know you want to defend the salt you're using Randy, it is nice and cheap, but that might be the problem.

Even you've said we don't know the long term health effects of 1000-2000x elevated lithium. Sure we have some creatures in the tank but that does not take into account the millions of different species in the ocean.

This is something the Triton creator has remarked. Only the USA test results seem to have elevated lithium when compared to European salts. So far from what I've seen, only IO, RC, and esv salinity has had elevated lithium. So its not all salts.

All in all, we cannot dismiss the elevated lithium maybe negatively affecting corals and fish. Bottom line, there's not that much lithium in natural ocean water, period.

 

[ca1ore]

Has anyone sent a freshly mixed up sample of various salt mixes in for Triton testing?

 

[bertoni]

I would have to disagree.
Even you've said we don't know the long term health effects of 1000-2000x elevated lithium.

I think there was some speculation that the high lithium level in CoraLife salt was killing brittle stars, although that was a long time ago:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=774002

I'll try to do some more searching later.

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

Nice chart, I'll have to see if I can find some other info. Is there a way to remove the lithium? Is there any non-lethal binders we could use bertoni?

Found this while I was browsing..

Lithium does not seem to pose as much of a toxicity concern as many other ions, but in three of the samples (Dow, Warner, ESV) it is greatly elevated. Over a year, each of these would add about 2 ppm lithium, or 12 times the natural level. Is that too much? I am not sure. In a prior analysis of artificial salt mixes, Craig Bingman found that two salt mixes started out with greatly elevated lithium levels (90X over natural levels for Coralife and 6X for Seachem, with the others ranging from 1.5X - 3.1X). Typical aquaria surveyed by Ron Shimek contained about 0.6 ppm of lithium (3X over natural seawater) with a range from 0.015 ppm (0.08X) - 7 ppm (39 X).

It is well known that excess lithium has significant adverse effects of the development of sea urchin embryos,1,2 and many studies have been carried out in this area. The amount of lithium used in those studies, however, is typically around 500-3,000 ppm. It has also been shown that 345 ppm of lithium will result in death of the isopod limnoria.3

So while 2 ppm lithium delivered by these samples is greatly increased over the natural levels of 0.18 ppm, it is still small compared to the hundreds of ppm required to show toxic effects. Given that gap, and the fact that the lithium levels will likely be attenuated by water changes, I conclude that the lithium in these calcium chloride samples is not an excessive risk. Nevertheless, that is something that each aquarist can decide for themselves.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/chemistry

 

[bertoni]

I have never heard of a way to reduce lithium other than water changes with a low-lithium product.

 

[Eyore]

Has anyone sent a freshly mixed up sample of various salt mixes in for Triton testing?

european reefers have done this on european salts yes

the results are quite an eye opener tbh, however you do have to take them with a pinch of salt (pardon the pun), and look at totals as well as the individual numbers

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would have to disagree.

I know you want to defend the salt you're using Randy, it is nice and cheap, but that might be the problem.

Even you've said we don't know the long term health effects of 1000-2000x elevated lithium. Sure we have some creatures in the tank but that does not take into account the millions of different species in the ocean.

This is something the Triton creator has remarked. Only the USA test results seem to have elevated lithium when compared to European salts. So far from what I've seen, only IO, RC, and esv salinity has had elevated lithium. So its not all salts.

All in all, we cannot dismiss the elevated lithium maybe negatively affecting corals and fish. Bottom line, there's not that much lithium in natural ocean water, period.

We can to some extent dismiss it as huge numbers of wonderful tanks have it. If you want a wonderful tank, we can dismiss it as a prohibiting factor. if you want a perfect tank, no we cannot dismiss it.

Could the corals do better without it? Possibly.

 

[Bilk]

Figured I'd add the results from my tank here.

Everything is in check except lithium and bromine, which seems to be a common result for many tests. Oh PO4 is a bit low :hmm4: I should add, I've been using ESV salt but recently switched to Tropic Marin regular. This test was done during the use of ESV solely. I'll retest in a month or two after having run with TM.