Is High Magnesium or Tech-M bad for Zoas?

[Reeferhead]

Would you consider dosing the tech m to your softy tank on a regular basis?

That's most likely going to to be the best solution, yes. Of course it also means I'll need to start doing regular water changes as well :facepalm: It would be nice if someone could isolate whatever it is in Tech-M that gets the job done so we didn't need to raise our mg everytime to kill this stuff.

Thats interesting about the Epsom salts. Do you think that the MgSO4 and the MgCl(Tech M) have the same impurities?

Tech-M is a combination of MgSO4 and MgCl. No one knows the exact ratio other than the manufacture but many assume its heavier on the MgSO4 side, much like Dr Randys DIY solution.

WOW, there are some great colours there! It looks like most of the colonies are open and healthy. Thats really encouraging. ...And I don't see any bryopsis. Has the battle been won in that respect?

There is a tiny bit of bryopsis left that’s irritating my fire and ice zoas.

 

[Reeferhead]

I did another 15 gallon WC yesterday. I think things are improving. I'm not sure if it was the Mg/TechM or something else but the WCs certainly seemed to help.

 

[tmz]

A few thoughts:

There is no general consensus that the elevated magnesium or the higher alkainity or slainity that comes with it causes bryopsis to wane. Most proponents of this method cite a mystery toxin for success with Tech M and not other magnesium supplements. That's a weak proposition and a scary one since such a toxin would not be selective to just bryopsis , imo. It may well be the extra magnesium, or the overall effect it may have on alkalinity. Some report no effect on the bryopsis with Tech M as well as no effect with other products.
There have been a couple of reports of zoanthus struggles with mag elevated with Tech M.They were not as high as 2030ppm, IIRC.

NSW is about 1280ppm . There are no studies , I've seen ,on the effect of elevated magnesium; the anecdotal reports don't deal with the 2000ppm plus range. It's pretty high ,about 159% of the natural level.

It will take a long time for it to come down as mag is used slowly. Personally I'd do a series of 15% water changes with a low magnesium salt mix to lower it.

The chloride/ sulfate issue is less likely aproblem with Tech M since it uses both mag chloride and mag sulfate ; some other products use just mag sulfate. NSW has about 19,000ppm chloride and 2700 ppm sulfate. Extended use of a product with sulfate at higher proportions may skew that ratio over time particularly if water changes are sparse. The effects of elevated sulfate are unknown . For example, excess sulfate may encourage more sulfate reducing bacterial activity in anoxic areas leading to more sufides and hydrogen sulfide,maybe.

Bryopsis can be limited with low PO4 ,<.03ppm, but it takes a sustained low level over a period of time ,ime. and even then it may pop up over a patch of detritus or new rock leaching PO4 from time to time

 

[Reeferhead]

Most proponents of this method cite a mystery toxin for success with Tech M and not other magnesium supplements. That's a weak proposition and a scary one since such a toxin would not be selective to just bryopsis , imo. It may well be the extra magnesium, or the overall effect it may have on alkalinity. Some report no effect on the bryopsis with Tech M as well as no effect with other products.

As I mentioned earlier. I've battled bryopsis on multiple occasions in multiple tanks and have tried several different Magnesium supplements over the years. I've used Tech-M, MagFlake (MgCl), and several different brands of Epsom Salts (MgSO4). Tech-M works faster at lower dosages than anything else I've ever tried.

For Example, I once raised my Mg over 500ppm with Epsom Salts and it did not kill any bryopsis. Over a period of several months I brought the Mg back down to NSW levels and raised then it again just 200ppm with Tech-M. The bryopsis was all dead within two weeks.

I've used MgFlake in the past to raise my Mg to over 2200 ppm and bryopsis was totally unaffected. I've also had bryopsis grow back even when the Mg level was at 1600+ ppm. IMO and IME, there is something other than Mg that sets TechM apart. I just wish I knew what it was!

There have been a couple of reports of zoanthus struggles with mag elevated with Tech M.They were not as high as 2030ppm, IIRC.

Can you link me to any of these reports? I've been searching but came up empty. TIA

 

[tmz]

Here are 2:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2093113&highlight=bryopsis

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2182908&highlight=bryopsis

There are others but you have to read through threads to find them. Just search bryopsis on the reef chemistry forum and you'll; find the gamut: from it's magic ,to it kills good stuff ; to it doesn't work.

The two articles cited in this post of mine in the first thread noted above may be of interest:

The coloration change or paling sounds like the zaonthidae is stressed. It could be the high mag or sg if it has been elevated.
There are few studies on the toxicity of elevated levels of magnesium but at some threshold it can effect them and may effect different organisms at different levels.. What that threshold is for specific marine organisms is unknown. Organisms appear to take it up from the water for more than use in skeletal mass. Apparently it can mess with osmotic pressures across membranes., organisms need it for key functions in making DNA and RNA, fish actively expell excess through renal activity,it binds with other ions making them less available for biological use.

Here are two articles that may be of interest ,particularly the parts on excess magnesium toxicity:

http://web.archive.org/web/200306242...io/default.asp

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm



__________________
Tom

 

[Reeferhead]

Thanks Tom :thumbsup:

 

[tmz]

You ae welcome, Nick.

 

[deadmeat]

Nick,
I was wondering if you have inverts in the tank? If so did you loose any of them with the rapid increase in magnesium? I ask because I had a mystery die-off of Trochus a few months back and never could figure out why for sure. A few weeks before I aggressively dosed mag 2 times to fight off algae and considered that could have been the issue.

Tom

 

[nmouncey]

What quantity of TechM are people dosing? How much per how many gallons how often?

I'm trying both TechM and a vary controlled (to the drop) vodka dosing regimen on both a 100 gallon reef and a 2'x2'x8" frag tank. The bryopsis is effected.....turns colors then fights on. I believe in some areas it is actually doing better?

 

[Reeferhead]

Nick,
I was wondering if you have inverts in the tank? If so did you loose any of them with the rapid increase in magnesium? I ask because I had a mystery die-off of Trochus a few months back and never could figure out why for sure. A few weeks before I aggressively dosed mag 2 times to fight off algae and considered that could have been the issue.

Tom

I didn't notice any issues with my inverts. I have several different species of snails, crabs, and shrimp. No trochus in this tank though.

What quantity of TechM are people dosing? How much per how many gallons how often?

I'm trying both TechM and a vary controlled (to the drop) vodka dosing regimen on both a 100 gallon reef and a 2'x2'x8" frag tank. The bryopsis is effected.....turns colors then fights on. I believe in some areas it is actually doing better?

IME, you need to add a doseage large enough to raise the Mg by about 300ppm to produce an initial kill-off, followed by smaller maintence doses to keep it from coming back

 

[cjk76]

I had bryopsis all over my candy apple redds. Even a 5 min H2O2 dip didn't completely kill it all off. Finally I blasted the frag with tech m and it all died off. The zoas weren't happy (the treatments were within a week of each other). They closed up for a long time and the colors were off after they opened. After 3 or 4 weeks, they are all open and back to normal, along with my coralline that died when I blasted the tech m.

 

[Reeferhead]

Update:

I haven't done anymore water changes and my Mg is down to about 1680ppm. All my zoas have recovered nicely. They're fully open and look normal again.

The bryopsis returned, growing within a small colony of Fire and Ice Zoas. Instead of dosing the whole tank, I turned all the pumps off and used a pipette to apply about 1mL of Tech-M directly on the small patch of bryopsis. I turned the pumps back on 15 minutes later. The entire bryopsis patch was gone within a week. The Fire and Ice Zoas were uneffected and have never looked better!

 

[tmz]

If you can remove that colony of fire and ice , a dip in 3 parts tank water and 1 part hydrogen peroxide( standard 3% solution) for 5 minutes might work. It my take a day or two for the bryopsis to wane. This dip works very well on red turf algae ; not sure about bryopsis but I think it will. Zoanthids tolerate these dips well. Actually seem to like them and seem quite vibrant after being back in the tank for a few hours. Don't dip a chalice this way though. If there are mini serpent stars on the rock or frag take them off before dipping or the dip will usually kill them.

 

[Reeferhead]

Thanks Tom but there is no bryopsis left to kill. You must have missed part of my last post

 

[tmz]

Oops.