Is it Male or Female - Premnas

[canada55]

I have two large female maroon clowns (not in same tank). One of the females is with two small males and are breeding...I don't want to interfere with them. I have a second female I just acquired (large darker colored).

And I have this one other Maroon clown I don't know what it is. It "was" smaller and male It's been housed by itself for several months or with no other clown in the tank.

I understand this isolation can cause a change from male into female. The clown is now slightly larger than my other males but not any where near the size of the females. The coloring is dark but stripes a very white with a slight hint of gold..whereas my other females their stripes are much more dark gold...do I have a male or female?

....I tried putting the two together and the fight was on, the male (i think) is now in a floating critter box in tank with larger female right now. separate but together. I few comments would be heplfull...I will upload a picture of the clown in question in a few hours got to go to work now..

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Maroons in general are one of the hardest clowns to pair. Some people go through different clown combinations before they end up with a true bonded and subsequently mated pair.

 

[ThRoewer]

...I understand this isolation can cause a change from male into female. ...

This is a widespread myth which has been disproven by actual scientific research (in the field and in captivity). For a male to turn into a female clownfish need a submissive partner. Further they need to have reached a certain (species related) size.

I would give those two a try. Best would be to use at first a separator to see how they react and to get used to each other. Depending on how both react I would then let them go together under close supervision. You should know pretty quickly if they get along or not.

 

[canada55]

This is the clown in question Male/Female?, this one is 50% bigger than my other males and 50% smaller than my two females.

I did briefly introduce them together and the big female pinned this guy down and tore up a pectoral fin. Had them together for 20mins before I moved the male(i think) into a clear critter cage floating in same tank as the female. I will wait till week end maybe try again when I've got some time to watch closely. Currently the big female is staying in her corner with her anemone.

Also got another problem in the same tank, I've got a Juvenile yellow tang that has aggravating the situation by tailing the new clown introduce to the tank forcing him into the corner with the female. I'll have to remove the tang until I know if the clowns are compatible.

 

[canada55]

This is a widespread myth which has been disproven by actual scientific research (in the field and in captivity). For a male to turn into a female clownfish need a submissive partner. Further they need to have reached a certain (species related) size.

I would give those two a try. Best would be to use at first a separator to see how they react and to get used to each other. Depending on how both react I would then let them go together under close supervision. You should know pretty quickly if they get along or not.

So there might be a slim chance this is just a large male.

 

[ThRoewer]

If they were already fighting I would be cautious. Are you sure it was a male to begin with or did you just guessed it by its size?

 

[canada55]

If they were already fighting I would be cautious. Are you sure it was a male to begin with or did you just guessed it by its size?

Just guessing by the size, this fish also has two brothers (definitely males) in with another female, they are 50% smaller than this one.

This fish has never been with a female so it has never been a submissive partner.

That's my problem, I have no way for sure know what sex it is....still male or am I too late and its gone female on me....

 

[ThRoewer]

When you tried to pair them up, how did you do that?

Ideally you add the female to the male so that he has a bit of a home advantage, though it may be even better to use neutral grounds (= a tank unfamiliar to both).
Best is to take a 10 or 20 gallon tank and divide it with egg crate or an acrylic sheet (with little holes ideally) and put each into their own compartment. Let them get used to each other this way for at least a week. If you see the male making submissive gestures towards the female remove the separator and see how it goes.

 

[canada55]

When you tried to pair them up, how did you do that?

Ideally you add the female to the male so that he has a bit of a home advantage, though it may be even better to use neutral grounds (= a tank unfamiliar to both).
Best is to take a 10 or 20 gallon tank and divide it with egg crate or an acrylic sheet (with little holes ideally) and put each into their own compartment. Let them get used to each other this way for at least a week. If you see the male making submissive gestures towards the female remove the separator and see how it goes.

I introduce the male (i think)to the tank by hanging in a typical plastic bag for about 2hrs. The female came up to bag and checked things out but made no aggressive attack until I let the male (i think) into the tank.

After the attack the female went back to her corner and the male(i think) moved to the other side of the tank were he was relentlessly annoyed by the yellow tang. After about 20mins I moved the male(i think) into a critter keeper that is floating in the tank with the female. So they are in the same tank but separated. I have not seen the female come out from her corner and approach the container with the male(i think)...At work now and will leave as is for a few days or a week as you suggest and monitor behavior.

I am going to remove that yellow tang that is aggravating the situation too.

 

[canada55]

If they were already fighting I would be cautious. Are you sure it was a male to begin with or did you just guessed it by its size?

I should add to this that the clown I'm hoping is male did not fight back in any way, it took the attack from the female. Very submissive.

But then most fish introduce to a new tank are bewildered for some time... and occasionally get a little bullying from other tank mates.

 

[ThRoewer]

Adding a submissive to an established dominant fish (not just clowns) is always more likely to fail than doing it the other way around. The weaker fish needs the home field advantage to prevail.

From your description I gather that your smaller one is indeed a male. If possible you should follow my recommendation and introduce them both to a tank neither of them is familiar with (or completely redecorate the current tank so that the female doesn't recognize it). Keep it divided for a couple of days so they get to know each other and then remove the divider to let them get together. I'm pretty sure that will work.

I've put freshly bought Premnas together into a new tank and they paired up right away. The real key is that the female doesn't have the territorial advantage. If both are new to the tank they will rather search each others support than fight among themselves.

 

[canada55]

Adding a submissive to an established dominant fish (not just clowns) is always more likely to fail than doing it the other way around. The weaker fish needs the home field advantage to prevail.

From your description I gather that your smaller one is indeed a male. If possible you should follow my recommendation and introduce them both to a tank neither of them is familiar with (or completely redecorate the current tank so that the female doesn't recognize it). Keep it divided for a couple of days so they get to know each other and then remove the divider to let them get together. I'm pretty sure that will work.

I've put freshly bought Premnas together into a new tank and they paired up right away. The real key is that the female doesn't have the territorial advantage. If both are new to the tank they will rather search each others support than fight among themselves.

Very good advice, I'm going to try that....I have a 40gal breeder I can set up quickly....Thanks Dennis

 

[canada55]

Just wanted to post an update for those with a similar situation. I did keep the clowns separated for a week as suggested. During the week I tried to feed the clowns on each side of the separator so they would be eating in front of each other. While separated they did make moves towards each other but nothing violent. After a week I did remove the separator with only a mild confrontation not really much of a fight. The clowns did separate, with each one taking an end of the tank. The past few days the male has been creepy out of his corner and venturing out towards the middle of the tank in plain view of the female, I only saw one scuffle that lasted maybe 3 seconds. Both are eating but still haven't paired up.

 

[ThRoewer]

Try adding a ceramic flowerpot at the middle of the tank. It's the next best thing to an anemone.

 

[canada55]

Thanks for the tip,,I have a 4" small pot sitting in my sump ready to go... Question do you place the pot up side down or on its side to make a little cave? Would you recommend a larger 6" pot?

May other clowns just lay eggs all over the glass, rock work, what ever is around..

 

[ThRoewer]

I place it usually like this:

This way you can see what's going on inside. I also found that the clownfish prefer it like this as they can see what's going on on the outside

As for the size: I found that it is ideal if the inside bottom diameter is equal or slightly larger than the female is in length.

 

[canada55]

Saw the first sign of the courtship shake/dance done by the smaller clown fish tonight, the one I was unsure of it's sex. No fighting just kinda met up in the middle of the tank. This could be going on all day while I'm a t work...After the encounter they both swam off to the corners at opposite ends of the tank..

 

[ThRoewer]

Did you add a flowerpot? They need a place where they both want to be to stay together.
But simply the fact that the little one is still alive is a very good sign.

 

[DubiousMaximus]

There is a captive grow maroon species with lighter gold stripes and usually misbarred. The ones I have where labeled Gold Dot Maroons. iirc

 

[canada55]

There is a captive grow maroon species with lighter gold stripes and usually misbarred. The ones I have where labeled Gold Dot Maroons. iirc

The clown I believe is male for sure is captive grow, and I don't see that obvious barb like I do on the larger female.

Today they were eating together but still hanging out a opposite side of the tank. No fighting.

I will add the flower pot, put I will need to get a larger 6" pot and soak & scrub for a few days in RODI water..