Is there a max size of tabling Acros?

[AquaTDV]

At what point do tabling Acros particularly Milles block the light so much that they begin to die underneath causing the health of the colony to decline?

I've grown several large Mille colonies from frags over the years, and when they hit the 20" in diameter mark the colony begins to decline. I've experienced this with all sorts of lighting. From LEDs to 400 watt MHs in a 12 year span of keeping SPS. I know that stony corals don't live forever otherwise the ocean wouldn't have a reef structure to build on. I believe it was Eric Borneman who said the average SPS colony lifespan was from 4 to 11 years on Pacific acros they studied. I know there are a lot of variables involved but is the natural live cycle of a colony if not fragged, to eventually die and continue to build a reef in our tanks. If so what is the size we should expect before it dies this is also where light tracks with swiveling heads would be effective, because this would allow light to hit the coral from different angles like the sun moving across the sky. Not just from directly above the coral casting a shadow on everything that lies beneath.

Has anyone else experienced this, and if so what size do you try and keep your colonies at?

 

[BrentH]

Nice thread I wasn't aware of the lifespan of sps also my tables do always die on the underside or lose color I'm not in to the years of sps yet but understand and I'm curious of what answers you'll get

 

[chopper320]

Interesting thread! I can't wait to hear some responses. I was also not aware that sps could have such short of a lifespan. I always assumed that a colony could live many decades if not more.

 

[franklypre]

Reef Builders had a huge piece of ORA red planet pictured a few weeks back, I'm sure conditions would play the biggest factor in size and longevity

 

[AquaTDV]

Reef Builders had a huge piece of ORA red planet pictured a few weeks back, I'm sure conditions would play the biggest factor in size and longevity

That is an amazing coral.... Notice the concentration in the center of the coral is around 20" x 20" and then on the sides it has holes for light to penetrate. I wonder if this was done intentionally or just accidentally. Your right, lighting is key to this kind of success.

 

[Moser]

RalfP's Hyacinthus is apparently about 4ft across …

 

[TimeConsumer]

I don't know about in aquariums, but they can get huge in the wild.

 

[AquaTDV]

RalfP's Hyacinthus is apparently about 4ft across "¦

I read the article in Advanced Aquarist about Ralph Prehn's aquarium I particularly liked the part about his methodology. Maybe its not the size of the colony causing its decline. Instead maybe its the ionic imbalances that come from an older system, like one needed to grow out such large corals. I also us the balling method, and have been doing so for the last 5 years. Ralph does 20% or 174 gallon waterchanges a week.

Methodology changes

"I've had to change my macro-element addition method. I was originally using the original "Balling" method. I was aware that this method shifts the ion-balance towards having too much NaCl in the water. I compensated this with adding NaCl free seasalt in the right amount. This method was running fine for years. From a certain point on, the tank began getting worse and worse, with LPS not feeling good anymore, clams looking strange and cyanobacteria taking over more and more. About a year, I tried all I knew to reverse the direction the tank was developing towards.

The key to initiate positive change IMHO was to understand that the method I used was based on the assumption that our captive reef-water is something near ideal seawater. It is not! Some elements and also trace elements are present in a huge quantities not comparable to real seawater. Simply adding NaHCO3 also meant adding a lot of traceelements that may be safe for human consumption but kept adding up in the reef. Understanding this motivated the next change: I stopped adding all the chemicals that were meant to 'correct' something other additions produce. I stopped using NaCl free salt and also stopped using MgSO4, which was originally mixed with the MgCl2 to achieve a more natural "SO4"-concentration. Facing this problem and understanding that I of course still have a ion displacement, I increased waterchanges to 15% net / 20% gross a week.

In general, I've moved to a more simple setup. IMHO, you can't continuously maintain a system if you have to creep through tanks, pipes, sacks and bottles to get there first. I automated waterchanges to a point where changing water means pressing two buttons and dropping one sack of salt into a container. I simply wasn't doing regular waterchanges on a weekly basis without this automation. For more than half a year now, I stopped adding any extra trace elements.

I changed a lot minor things, like mounting the 4*34Watts UV on the wall and not flat on the floor anymore. That really reduced the work connected to changing the bulbs regulary (so I regularly do it now). The quartz glass around the bulbs doesn't get locked up with chalk sediments anymore."
Advanced Aquarist, 1/12

 

[Moser]

It doesn't seem that Ralf's table has hit any sort of stage of decline yet. His change of method was not related to this coral in particular. I think he was getting a lot of cyano and decided that a tighter regime was for the better…..

The KZ show tank had a similar sized colony and so did Luc Loyen. In fact, I think Jan ( Dutch Reef) had at least a 2 ft colony as well...

Mo

 

[bobkill]

Dog boy Dave use to have a TREE in the middle of his DT - intresting topic

 

[trueblackpercula]

This is an amazing system. The table is outstanding but let's not take away from that green forest stag he's got there.
For most people this setup is what we all stride for ....well at least I am

 

[r-balljunkie]

i think you may be misquoting Eric with reference to 4-11 years.

See here.

I've seen plenty of really old growth on the reef, some tabling can get 20' - 30' + across easily. colonies of single species spread over half a football field. lobophyllia colonies the size of small cars.

to say a coral go's from larval stage to dead in 4 years might be a stretch.
i think it might be unreasonable to try to surmise how long you can keep coral XX in an aquarium environment. Reef keeping, coral keeping is still relatively new and im sure boundaries will be pushed for decades to come.

 

[AquaTDV]

i think you may be misquoting Eric with reference to 4-11 years.

See here.

I've seen plenty of really old growth on the reef, some tabling can get 20' - 30' + across easily. colonies of single species spread over half a football field. lobophyllia colonies the size of small cars.

to say a coral go's from larval stage to dead in 4 years might be a stretch.
i think it might be unreasonable to try to surmise how long you can keep coral XX in an aquarium environment. Reef keeping, coral keeping is still relatively new and im sure boundaries will be pushed for decades to come.

This is a non-sequitur..... You are correct that corals colonys can live for 1000s of years, far longer than 4-11 years. However, this was about tabling Acros, and in Eric Borneman's "Aquarium Corals" on page 25

"One well known head of Porites lobata near Taiwan called Big Mushroom has more than 39ft vertical growth and a estimated age of a 1000 yrs. Coral colonies over 600yrs old are commom on some reefs. in fact until very recently, corals were not thought to have the cells or genes that determine aging. the average age of living colonies of corals such as Acropora and porites speicies on some Pacific reefs studied was just 4-11 years"

Do they die because of age, flow, or lighting issues due to their enormous size? What might we need to do as hobbiest to meet the demands of these corals as they age? Perhaps it is something that is out of our control? I would like to learn for people who have kept these coral for many years, and been successful when they grow larger than I've been able to get them to grow. I know I am not the only hobbiest that has run into these problems.

 

[Dog boy Dave]

In my experience , in my systems, I get very little loss on the undersides of corals unless something external is off. If lights are low because of malfunction then I get loss. If i move I might loose some darks spots. If someone else shades them, I loose shade spots. However, if the coral is growing in place , I have never seen one shade itself out unless I made a change or had a chemistry problem. Most of the loss that I have had on the underside of corals is do chemistry issues. If the coral is stressed it will loose flesh in shade first. I had some losses in my large stag early this year but these where chemistry issues. Yes I still have it..

 

[bobkill]

Awesome to hear - among my group of reefers it's know as home tree (from avatar)

In my experience , in my systems, I get very little loss on the undersides of corals unless something external is off. If lights are low because of malfunction then I get loss. If i move I might loose some darks spots. If someone else shades them, I loose shade spots. However, if the coral is growing in place , I have never seen one shade itself out unless I made a change or had a chemistry problem. Most of the loss that I have had on the underside of corals is do chemistry issues. If the coral is stressed it will loose flesh in shade first. I had some losses in my large stag early this year but these where chemistry issues. Yes I still have it..

 

[AquaTDV]

In my experience , in my systems, I get very little loss on the undersides of corals unless something external is off. If lights are low because of malfunction then I get loss. If i move I might loose some darks spots. If someone else shades them, I loose shade spots. However, if the coral is growing in place , I have never seen one shade itself out unless I made a change or had a chemistry problem. Most of the loss that I have had on the underside of corals is do chemistry issues. If the coral is stressed it will loose flesh in shade first. I had some losses in my large stag early this year but these where chemistry issues. Yes I still have it..

Nice! Could we get some details about your system please? (Tank size, colony size, flow, lighting ect)

 

[footballdude2k3]

Tagging along for this, very interesting topic

 

[doosiec]

Figured the maximum size of the table is dependent on the size of the tank.
Hence being in the ocean the sky is the limit.

When inside an aquarium there's only so much space it can spread to.
Not sure how the structure and foundation will hold after 4 feet... that's really insane.
The weight of it, the base must be sturdy enough to hold a fully grown human.
Truly a spectacle to behold.

 

[ridetheducati]

I never run into this problem as I reboot (start over) my system every 3 - 4 years. In that time, corals are 12 -16" in diameter. Cannot imagine looking at the same coral for more than four year.

 

[Dog boy Dave]

Nice! Could we get some details about your system please? (Tank size, colony size, flow, lighting ect)

Here is a thread from start of latest box in 2007 to about 6 months ago. I have posted here ad nauseum , lots of stuff and images of the tank. I have just recently added some more leds and also am just about to bring a 4 foot by 8 foot lagoon /sump on line to complete the system.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1425143