cambo123
New member
Great, I need to get the move dates for my tank locked down but once I know what is happening I will put an order in. Hoping a week from Wednesday is the day!
Thanks
Is this the exciting future of Live Rock? Must See!!!
- Thread starter d2mini
- Start date
Great, I need to get the move dates for my tank locked down but once I know what is happening I will put an order in. Hoping a week from Wednesday is the day!
Thanks
liverock
RC Sponsor
Piece of cake!..what airport?....the rock is packed under water....like it never left my holding tanks here...when it gets to you..happy and alive....
Richard tbs
www.tbsaltwater.com
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dingodan87
New member
Hey Richard. I live in Vancouver Canada is there a way for me to get the rock shipped there? Also my tank is currently cycling do I need to wait for it to be fully established to support the life that comes with these rocks?
Lonelyreef
New member
I know people that have ordered live rock from the gulf and it does in fact have pests. Pests also come in the form of evasive corals such as Xenia there's also evasive sponges, anthropods, Copepods, mantis shrimp while beautiful are also pests because they will eat anything in a tank.
Also evasive algae there's quite a lot of things in the gulf. Not only have I've seen people and personally seen this kinda rock but I also grew up in keylargo Florida and swam and snorkel most of my life and catch all kinds of little things in empty jugs from underneath rock ledges.
If your convinced this rock has no pests than offer it as a 100% pest free. It's not an attack on you or this rock but I know the truths and I hate to see unsuspecting people buy rock than get a pest and have it ruin there experience
It's not my rock or my company. I've just been helping out. To each his own. I've done it both ways. Dry and live. Both can be successful. My point is that all of the pests that come from the waters off of Tampa Bay are easily remedied. The marine environment is much different in our waters compared to South Florida. For example, we don't have a ton of Stoney corals. It gets too cold and the water isn't clear enough. Again, I'm simply pointing out that the big pests we really need to worry about aren't coming from this rock. They're coming from the LFS or fellow reefers. Remember the majority of corals in the trade are from the Pacific and are susceptible to Pacific pests.
CuzzA,
Your going to love diving Blue Grotto! Don't know about DD as I haven't dove it, may be a little too claustrophobic for me.Good luck and study up on those dive tables (even though your computer does all the computing for you - just need it for the test)! :lmao:
Mark
Thanks, I'm really looking forward to it. Anxious is an understatement. I've definitely been studying. The past few days I've been reviewing the dive tables. I recently signed up on scubaboard.com too. Trying to research as much as possible.
BigJohnny
Active member
"Several species of Caulerpa are found along with fleshy red and brown turf alga." - that is the last thing I want in my tank and not always "easily remedied. I don't want to have to remedy those things.
Not to mention the plethora of people that claim of having to deal with gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp, etc. Both can hide and wreak havoc in a system for a long time. What about flatworms and parasites? Can you gaurantee there are no ich stages on the rock or in the water?
I want a controlled ideal environment to grow the corals I pick. I guess it's just whether you want your own reef, or part of the ocean.
I agree that tons of lfs sell bogus live rock, but plenty don't. They sell live rock that's been in their massive healthy display tanks or sumps. I don't see how you could possibly argue that getting live rock from the ocean is safer than from a reliable lfs or reefer.
If I buy live rock from a reefer/lfs who doesn't have caulerpa/turf algae/gorilla crabs/parasites in there tank because they qt and treat religiously before stocking, I know I won't either. You just don't get that assurance with rock from the ocean.
Trust me, I understand that it's "true live rock" and really is like having part of the ocean in your home, but I (and majority of reefers I've spoken with) want success in growing corals and fish that we pick in an environment we control. I guess it's just two different things. IMO you can't say one is better than the other for that reason. It is definitely cool though.
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alton
Well-known member
When I set up wife's 40 gallon I went with dead rock and sand, it took months to start looking half way decent and yet after two years I still had issues with junk. It doesn't matter how well you dip a coral or a rock, eggs/ aptaisia find a way. Just nip it in the rear when it happens. If I were starting over I would rather look at nice rock for a couple months picking out what I didn't want before adding anything new, than waiting several months looking at white rocks. But to each there own.
Fair enough. But in most low nutrient systems, which is what most reefers strive for, algae doesn't do so well. In my experience I've tried to grow some desirable algaes and they just die off. Furthermore many macro algae species are dinner for a lot of fish and invert species. Urchins being one of them. Algae is no match for the urchins in my system. And tangs will make quick work of algae too.
Yep, you're likely going to get gorilla and stone crabs and maybe some mantis shrimp. They are pretty easy to catch. Especially before they get to a size that would cause any trouble. No one can make any guarantees regarding ich. But with that logic unless you're qting everything wet for 72 days you're opening up the door for that possibility. That includes qting crabs, snails, pods, refugium algaes like cheato, dragons breath, and mangroves, rock, sand, corals, natural seawater if you're collecting it and of course fish for 72 days. If one is so inclined to do that, good for them. I've yet to hear a report of ich presenting itself from gulf live rock so I have to believe that statement is just conjecture.
The ideal closed environment to grow corals is the environment that most closely replicates the natural ocean of the reefs. This statement implys you can't have "your own reef" if you use live rock and is very confusing. A reef is part of the ocean. We're talking about rock with some life on it; predominately sponges, barnacles, turnicates, pods and bacteria. The rock is simply the filtration and structure of a reef tank. If you know how to grow corals they will do just fine and you can build your reef however you want whether it's dry or live rock. It makes no difference. The corals will grow.
I never argued live rock from the ocean is "safer". My argument was the "majority" of rock purchased from a LFS is grossly overpriced as they simply buy dry rock for a few cents per pound, throw it in a saltwater vat until it's not white anymore and sell it for $7/ pound. Do yourself a favor and just buy dry rock and in a couple months it will won't be white anymore.
IMO, it's bad practice to rely on anyone but yourself when it comes to qt. Especially since ich can still be present, yet suppressed in a system with healthy fish. Same goes for corals. I've picked up frags from fellow reefers whose systems looked amazing and they thought they didn't have any pest, yet after qting their corals I've discovered AEFW and/or bugs. The bottom line is it's the individuals responsibility to qt.
In this statement you're implying that a reef with true live rock will not have success. Which is so far from the truth. As I stated, dry or live can both lead to success. Let's also not forget most people seed their dry rock with live rock. And I'm speaking from experience of both. As I've grown in this hobby, met with experienced reefers who have been doing this for decades and had this same discussion, my negative feelings against live rock have changed. I once was in the dry rock camp. Mainly because of the over exaggeration and fear people put into new hobbyist about pests. I've since learned these fears were pretty much unfounded when it came to rock and the true threat to my tank comes from trading and buying corals and fish from the LFS and fellow reefers. Again, there are two things I don't want in my tank and that is ich and AEFW. Which unfortunately are present in so many systems. Most of everything else can be remedied. As far as the majority of reefers you've spoken to that are using dry rock, I suspect for most it's a cost issue and not a pest issue. There are plenty of seasoned reefers on RC who use real live rock and have very successful systems. The original poster of this thread being one of them. And PaulB keeps coming to mind as well since every year he collects stuff from the ocean and throws it right in his tank.
But again, to each his own. I'm not arguing dry vs live. I'm arguing live being detrimental to a system is grossly exaggerated and often unfounded with conjecture by people who've never used it. Many will argue dry is the only way to go and bash live rock, meanwhile they've never even seen a piece of true love rock let alone put it in their tank.
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liverock
RC Sponsor
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2504743&highlight=driving+rock+to+canada
And yes...wait until the tank is stable.....then you are ready to rock!
Like Kross whose Package I shipped yesterday...... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23870615#post23870615 and by next week this time we will be sending part two of the Package http://tbsaltwater.com/thepackage/index.html
sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
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BigJohnny
Active member
Fair enough. But in most low nutrient systems, which is what most reefers strive for, algae doesn't do so well. In my experience I've tried to grow some desirable algaes and they just die off. Furthermore many macro algae species are dinner for a lot of fish and invert species. Urchins being one of them. Algae is no match for the urchins in my system. And tangs will make quick work of algae too.
Yep, you're likely going to get gorilla and stone crabs and maybe some mantis shrimp. They are pretty easy to catch. Especially before they get to a size that would cause any trouble. No one can make any guarantees regarding ich. But with that logic unless you're qting everything wet for 72 days you're opening up the door for that possibility. That includes qting crabs, snails, pods, refugium algaes like cheato, dragons breath, and mangroves, rock, sand, corals, natural seawater if you're collecting it and of course fish for 72 days. If one is so inclined to do that, good for them. I've yet to hear a report of ich presenting itself from gulf live rock so I have to believe that statement is just conjecture.
The ideal closed environment to grow corals is the environment that most closely replicates the natural ocean of the reefs. This statement implys you can't have "your own reef" if you use live rock and is very confusing. A reef is part of the ocean. We're talking about rock with some life on it; predominately sponges, barnacles, turnicates, pods and bacteria. The rock is simply the filtration and structure of a reef tank. If you know how to grow corals they will do just fine and you can build your reef however you want whether it's dry or live rock. It makes no difference. The corals will grow.
I never argued live rock from the ocean is "safer". My argument was the "majority" of rock purchased from a LFS is grossly overpriced as they simply buy dry rock for a few cents per pound, throw it in a saltwater vat until it's not white anymore and sell it for $7/ pound. Do yourself a favor and just buy dry rock and in a couple months it will won't be white anymore.
IMO, it's bad practice to rely on anyone but yourself when it comes to qt. Especially since ich can still be present, yet suppressed in a system with healthy fish. Same goes for corals. I've picked up frags from fellow reefers whose systems looked amazing and they thought they didn't have any pest, yet after qting their corals I've discovered AEFW and/or bugs. The bottom line is it's the individuals responsibility to qt.
In this statement you're implying that a reef with true live rock will not have success. Which is so far from the truth. As I stated, dry or live can both lead to success. Let's also not forget most people seed their dry rock with live rock. And I'm speaking from experience of both. As I've grown in this hobby, met with experienced reefers who have been doing this for decades and had this same discussion, my negative feelings against live rock have changed. I once was in the dry rock camp. Mainly because of the over exaggeration and fear people put into new hobbyist about pests. I've since learned these fears were pretty much unfounded when it came to rock and the true threat to my tank comes from trading and buying corals and fish from the LFS and fellow reefers. Again, there are two things I don't want in my tank and that is ich and AEFW. Which unfortunately are present in so many systems. Most of everything else can be remedied. As far as the majority of reefers you've spoken to that are using dry rock, I suspect for most it's a cost issue and not a pest issue. There are plenty of seasoned reefers on RC who use real live rock and have very successful systems. The original poster of this thread being one of them. And PaulB keeps coming to mind as well since every year he collects stuff from the ocean and throws it right in his tank.
But again, to each his own. I'm not arguing dry vs live. I'm arguing live being detrimental to a system is grossly exaggerated and often unfounded with conjecture by people who've never used it. Many will argue dry is the only way to go and bash live rock, meanwhile they've never even seen a piece of true love rock let alone put it in their tank.
Well obviously there is no way I'm going to comment on every sentence of your 10 page manifesto there. I actually forgot what thread I was on by the time i finished reading.
Why would I want to have to deal with any of those things if I didn't have to. That's the point. I'm not interested in getting some random stuff attached that I don't need and probably some stuff I don't want. Whether or not they are easily remedied (your opinion) is irrelevant.
Dry rock eliminates all that risk, live rock from a successful system of a reliable reefer or lfs is safer than just pulling one out of the ocean.
Like I said before, I guess it just depends what your looking to get out of it. Bacteria, or a whole slew of other random things. Most people just buy it for the bacteria. Like you said, "The rock is simply the filtration and structure of a reef tank" so why would I get it for anything else?
Is this the exciting future of Live Rock? Must See!!!
Then don't buy it. Makes no difference to me. This thread is about real man made live rock from the ocean. The debate of live vs dry has been beat like a dead horse. Actually it's been beat by dead horses beating each other while holding filter socks. :lmao: There's plenty of threads out there about dry rock. Although there's not much to talk about in regards to dead dry rock.
Then don't buy it. Makes no difference to me. This thread is about real man made live rock from the ocean. The debate of live vs dry has been beat like a dead horse. Actually it's been beat by dead horses beating each other while holding filter socks. :lmao: There's plenty of threads out there about dry rock. Although there's not much to talk about in regards to dead dry rock.
BigJohnny
Active member
Then don't buy it. Makes no difference to me. This thread is about real man made live rock from the ocean. The debate of live vs dry has been beat like a dead horse. Actually it's been beat by dead horses beating each other while holding filter socks. :lmao: There's plenty of threads out there about dry rock. Although there's not much to talk about in regards to dead dry rock.
I may down the road for some application, because like I said before it's really cool and chalk full of life. That's just not something I want in my reef tanks.
IMO it's a good thing that there is not much to talk about in regards to dry rock, but I'm certainly not one to facilitate the abuse of dead animals by other dead animals, especially with an innocent piece of aquarium equipment like a filter sock [emoji6]
I would suggest not adding anything to your tank then. Every coral you add has the possibility of introducing hitch hikers and invasive things to your tank. I have gone both ways, good quality live rock and dead, dry rock. Nothing adds the variety of life to your tank like good quality live rock does. You may get a little bad, but you also get a plethora of good, most of which you cannot add any other way.
BigJohnny
Active member
Two different things your talking about there. First:
That's a ridiculous suggestion. I easily qt, dip, and treat anything that comes in on corals. Next:
I have never debated the amount of life or diversity. In fact I just said "cool and chalk full of life". I just don't need or want any of the "good" that I can't add any other way. Pretty simple.
That's a ridiculous suggestion. I easily qt, dip, and treat anything that comes in on corals. Next:
I have never debated the amount of life or diversity. In fact I just said "cool and chalk full of life". I just don't need or want any of the "good" that I can't add any other way. Pretty simple.
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BigJohnny
Active member
You know it's funny I hear that all the time but I'd love some actual concrete reasons why you think it's so much better. It's not, it's just different. I'm certainly open to changing my mind, it's just when all people say is "you get more life" or "more diversity" or some "good hitchikers" doesn't mean it's better. Better how, in what ways, for what purpose?
I think it's super cool, just not better. Btw, I've used live rock before and I still didn't get it [emoji6]
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Regarding post #113 / dive pictures. That must be like diving in bath water...
Out here in Cali its cold. Monterey diving is some of the best (opinion) in the world that I've seen to date but boy is it cold compared to what you guys have. 60'ish in the summer at surface but still 49 - 54 at depth. Better visibility of course is in the winter months so surface temp is colder
You guys are in shorts / t-shirt and I'm in 7 mil body + 3 mil chest heater + 3 mil hood, gloves, and boots Oh, forgot to add the extra weight due to layers of neoprene which is about 28 - 32 lbs. depending on how good I am on my body weight
Have to say just a wee bit jelly of your day job (although I can't say kudo's enough for what you do and risk from a small business point of view - and that is what living in the U.S. is all about).
Out here in Cali its cold. Monterey diving is some of the best (opinion) in the world that I've seen to date but boy is it cold compared to what you guys have. 60'ish in the summer at surface but still 49 - 54 at depth. Better visibility of course is in the winter months so surface temp is colder
You guys are in shorts / t-shirt and I'm in 7 mil body + 3 mil chest heater + 3 mil hood, gloves, and boots
Oh, forgot to add the extra weight due to layers of neoprene which is about 28 - 32 lbs. depending on how good I am on my body weight Have to say just a wee bit jelly of your day job (although I can't say kudo's enough for what you do and risk from a small business point of view - and that is what living in the U.S. is all about).
