Desert Fox
Pulling -6 to 9+ G's
Boy, i sure did. 
Blue skies,
~Fox~
Blue skies,
~Fox~
It doesn't seem Heavy metals are the cause
- Thread starter gregt
- Start date
Martyn
Premium Member
Interpreting posts on bulleting boards when not face to face with the people you are discussing subjects with can take time to adjust to, it is so easy to miss Interpret replys and questions and also very easy to read into things written that are not there or ment.
The way things are worded can mean a number of ways to Interpret them I feel it can take time to adjust to writing and reading on BBs it can take time to know the style of the posters and to Interpret what is being said.
Also the more you have to keep explaining things often you do not always take time to read what is being said fully and often do not word things in reply as you ment them to sound and this can lead to miss understandings.
It can be so easy to upset people that do not understand what you are trying to say in questions and in replys miss Interpreting what is ment is common even when face to face often people are not on the same wave lengths.
Not sure if I am making any sence
Regards
Martyn
The way things are worded can mean a number of ways to Interpret them I feel it can take time to adjust to writing and reading on BBs it can take time to know the style of the posters and to Interpret what is being said.
Also the more you have to keep explaining things often you do not always take time to read what is being said fully and often do not word things in reply as you ment them to sound and this can lead to miss understandings.
It can be so easy to upset people that do not understand what you are trying to say in questions and in replys miss Interpreting what is ment is common even when face to face often people are not on the same wave lengths.
Not sure if I am making any sence
Regards
Martyn
Gentlemen-Gentlemen,
Please do not lose your objectivity here. What Ron did was run a very limited bioassay on a single species. The hypothesis was, "Is there a difference in the survival rate of larval Arbacia punctulata between four artificial seawater mixes and natural seawater?" His results indicated there were and, that two artificial seawater mixes had markedly statistical lower survival rates than the other mixes used in this study when compared to NSW. His conclusion was therefore that there might be toxicity factors present in some of the mixes that would raise questions in the mind of the aquarist about their suitability for use in their tanks.
The message was just a warning about this possibility;
NOT a wholesale condemnation of these products. It is unreasonable for anyone to draw conclusions that Ron had some sinister motive in publishing his results. Please, if you feel the results are in someway biased, attack the methodology or the conclusions drawn, not the man.
Please do not lose your objectivity here. What Ron did was run a very limited bioassay on a single species. The hypothesis was, "Is there a difference in the survival rate of larval Arbacia punctulata between four artificial seawater mixes and natural seawater?" His results indicated there were and, that two artificial seawater mixes had markedly statistical lower survival rates than the other mixes used in this study when compared to NSW. His conclusion was therefore that there might be toxicity factors present in some of the mixes that would raise questions in the mind of the aquarist about their suitability for use in their tanks.
The message was just a warning about this possibility;
NOT a wholesale condemnation of these products. It is unreasonable for anyone to draw conclusions that Ron had some sinister motive in publishing his results. Please, if you feel the results are in someway biased, attack the methodology or the conclusions drawn, not the man.
Eileen Herring
New member
In looking for info on the effects of aluminum in marine water on fin fishes, I have stumbled on your article which this forum discusses. I note that the two "really bad" mixes, IO and Coralife, have astronomical levels of Al as well as other metals. Mightn't Al be a likely culprit?
We have a situation here near Bellingham involving a catastrophically plummeting herring population and an aluminum smelter. Numerous studies have looked at the effects of petrochemicals on the fish (there are two refineries, as well), but no smoking gun has surfaced. Auminum studies are harder to find. Interestingly, one of the petrochemical studies I saw looked at egg hatch survival and morbidity in situ, against a control group hatched in local stream water to which IO was added. To the surprise of the investigators, the IO control group had more than twice the mortality of the eggs hatched in situ in polluted marine water. Your study certainly gives a possible explanation for this result, but in the case of our water here, Al is much more likely to be present than other metals. There was in fact a recent incident where Intalco was caught red-handed spilling alumina onto the water while unloading a barge.
So I'm somewhat avid to find studies of Al on fish survival, with the hope of lighting a fire under the Dept. of Ecology. If my ulterior motive violates the spirit of this forum, please accept my apology. Still, I'd be grateful to know of any such studies you may be aware of. It was a pleasant surprise to see the name of my old UAA professor referenced in an article which came my way.
Sincerely, Eileen Herring
We have a situation here near Bellingham involving a catastrophically plummeting herring population and an aluminum smelter. Numerous studies have looked at the effects of petrochemicals on the fish (there are two refineries, as well), but no smoking gun has surfaced. Auminum studies are harder to find. Interestingly, one of the petrochemical studies I saw looked at egg hatch survival and morbidity in situ, against a control group hatched in local stream water to which IO was added. To the surprise of the investigators, the IO control group had more than twice the mortality of the eggs hatched in situ in polluted marine water. Your study certainly gives a possible explanation for this result, but in the case of our water here, Al is much more likely to be present than other metals. There was in fact a recent incident where Intalco was caught red-handed spilling alumina onto the water while unloading a barge.
So I'm somewhat avid to find studies of Al on fish survival, with the hope of lighting a fire under the Dept. of Ecology. If my ulterior motive violates the spirit of this forum, please accept my apology. Still, I'd be grateful to know of any such studies you may be aware of. It was a pleasant surprise to see the name of my old UAA professor referenced in an article which came my way.
Sincerely, Eileen Herring
gregt
Premium Member
Eileen,
I took the liberty of posting your question in the Chemistry forum where there are a few people that have been looking at the effect of Al in reef tanks. They may be able to help you out.... Here's the thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=244188
I took the liberty of posting your question in the Chemistry forum where there are a few people that have been looking at the effect of Al in reef tanks. They may be able to help you out.... Here's the thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=244188
Eileen Herring
New member
Greg,
Thank you very much.
Eileen
Thank you very much.
Eileen
Hi Eileen,
[welcome]
In looking for info on the effects of aluminum in marine water on fin fishes, I have stumbled on your article which this forum discusses. I note that the two "really bad" mixes, IO and Coralife, have astronomical levels of Al as well as other metals. Mightn't Al be a likely culprit?
Yes, it surely might be. I haven't specifically looked at the effects of aluminum on inverts primarily because there are so few published data. Relatively lotsa data on some other metals, such as arsenic, copper, mercury, etc.
As you know, research into the effect of such materials is driven by human health concerns, and it is hard to find work on metals that are not directly implicated in human problems (either directly physiologically, or economically). Aluminum isn't of as much concern in this area as are the real nasty heavy metals, so it hasn't been looked at a lot.
I spent a fair bit of time in the Allen and Fish/Ocean Libraries at the UW campus about a year ago trying to track down the effects of metals on coral reef inverts (the thrust of my concern at the time) and while there is a lot on heavy metals, there is not a lot of work on some of the others.
... So I'm somewhat avid to find studies of Al on fish survival, with the hope of lighting a fire under the Dept. of Ecology.
Good luck. I spent a lot of time both working across the table from Wash DOE and Region X EPA (I was working for a firm called Parametrix, Inc., at the time - and the projects were ones such as the Asarco Arsenic Smelter in Tacoma, the Everett Carrier Homeport, and several others). Presently, I work as a contract taxonomist now and then for DOE.
Keep in mind this agency is underfunded and understaffed and with really limited expertise. Unless they hire some good people you may have some real problems getting them to respond.
Scanning through my data base I came up with the following articles that contain information about aluminum. I don't know if any of them will be of any help for you.
Scott,PJB; Davies,M (1997): Retroactive determination of industrial contaminants in tropical marine communities. Marine Pollution Bulletin 34, 975-980.
[ALUMINUM; ANTHOZOA; BIOINDICATOR; CADMIUM; CHROMIUM; CNIDARIA; COPPER; CORAL; LEAD; NICKEL; POLLUTION; TIN; TRACE METALS; VANADIUM; ZINC]
Morrison,RJ; Narayan,SP; Gangalya,P (2001): Trace element studies in Laucala Bay, Suva, Fiji. Marine Pollution Bulletin 42, 397-404.
[ALUMINUM; CADMIUM; COPPER; FIJI; IRON; LEAD; MERCURY; POLLUTION; SEDIMENTS; TRACE METALS; ZINC]
Booij,K; Hillebrand,MTJ; Nolting,RF; van Ooijen,J (2001): Nutrients, Trace Metals, and Organic Contaminants in Banten Bay, Indonesia. Marine Pollution Bulletin 42, 1187-1190.
[ALUMINUM; BANTEN BAY; CADMIUM; CHROMIUM; CONTAMINATION; COPPER; INDONESIA; IRON; LEAD; NICKEL; NUTRIENT LOADING; ORGANIC CONTAMINATION; SEDIMENTS; TRACE METALS; ZINC]
Very good to hear from you again after all these years.
Please feel free to contact me directly (rshimek@imt.net) if you think I might be able to help you further.
Eileen Herring
New member
thanx for the info
thanx for the info
Ron,
Many thanks for the articles, which I'm sure will be helpful. I'll send an e-mail soon; it's good to hear from you, too.
Regards, Eileen
thanx for the info
Ron,
Many thanks for the articles, which I'm sure will be helpful. I'll send an e-mail soon; it's good to hear from you, too.
Regards, Eileen
