It.....Has.......Arrived.......

[Capt_Cully]

I don't want to run a hang on overflow. I did find a Herbie Drain example on another site. I like the looks of it. I would have to track down an acrylic box to house the suggested drains, if I did, indeed, find an accurate example.

It would be nice to not have a gurgling toilet in my living room.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

In the end I'm sure it'll be nice no matter what you do, but I thought I'd throw that out there. I've run open-channel (i.e. durso, stockman, glass-holes) on every tank I've had before the 360 and I never had complaints about them, until I ran the 360 with the herbie and found out how quiet it can be.

This is my overflow box:

It's in the upper back corner of the tank. The two 1.5" bulkheads are centered about 6" down from the top of the tank, on the wall. It's WAY bigger than it needs to be. All you really need is enough room to accommodate the two drains with elbows on the ends (or, a U on one and a second straight pipe if they are through the bottom). My box is 12" x 12" x 24". It could probably have been 8" tall, 4 or 6" front to back, and 12" long.

The downturned drain is a full siphon. It has a valve (outside the tank) to control the flow rate. The upturned elbow is the "emergency" backup. It has no valves. The sump ends of both drains should end under water. Basically, you adjust the valve on the siphon line until the water level in the overflow box is JUST underneath the lip of the upturned elbow. At that point it's essentially self-adjusting, failsafe, and dead silent.

If you're only running a mag 5 or 7 you could get away with 1" drains, no problem. That would make the required box even smaller.

As far as sourcing a box, I bet glass-holes would make you one - I know they've done custom stuff for other people.

 

[jaybfresh]

I've had 3 different glass holes boxes and various tanks. If I run the level close to the bottom of the teeth or close to the top of the teeth, the noise level is very low. In between it gets noticably louder. That said, I've never used the 1500gph verion

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I found the 1500 gph to be similar. Given my drain line design staying constant, the noise was a little worse near the middle of it's capacity. Turned way low, it was quiet. Or, run full out, it was mostly quiet. In the middle, it was the worst because the trickling noise was really bad. It pretty much always has the soft gentle "boiling/flushing/bubbling" noise from the air and water mixing as it exits into the sump. but it also has a "trickling" noise as the water enters the box. The trickling noise is the annoying part for me. It seems to be due to turbulence as the water runs through the teeth and over the sides of the "lid" that cover the tops of the bulkheads (people who have used g-h overflows will hopefully know what I mean by "lid").

If I was dead set on a glass holes box, I would probably ask them to make me one without teeth (you can protect the box with eggcrate or mesh, IME teeth just make things noisier) and I'd find some way to quiet the water as it rushed off the "lid" to the two open ends, inside the box. Little ramps, bits of sponge, or something like that. You'd still have the boiling/flushing noise you get with all open channel drains but you could probably kill the trickling noise.

 

[Flanders]

awesome looking tank! let me know when you need movers, and I'll send my 9-year-old over.

Nate - are you running the mag 12 full bore, and how did the water level end up being in the tank? I wanted to be sure it was above the trim, but I was afraid it might be too high at high flow levels and I'd never installed one of those boxes before... (sorry for the off-topic questions).

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Even at "barely a trickle" the water level is above the bottom edge of the trim. At full bore it's barely below the lip on the trim. I think you got it just right. This is really a nice overflow box, I don't want to seem like I'm tearing it apart. I'm just spoiled by being used to DIY'ing things to get around "problems" with OTS products.

 

[Johnny C]

I agree with DWZM- I have used several Glass-Holes overflows, and while I love them they sure are noisy. If the 1500GPH kit is twice as loud as my 700 (with two 1.5'' drains opposed to one) I would certainly use the BeanAnimal/Herbie style with a full siphon. Acdraindrps built an overflow for his and it's really low profile, after seeing/hearing it I wished I didn't use a GH kit.

PS- Glad to hear you are having Joe build your stand. I'm meeting up with him tonight to design a stand for my new project!

 

[Flanders]

This is really a nice overflow box, I don't want to seem like I'm tearing it apart. I'm just spoiled by being used to DIY'ing things to get around "problems" with OTS products.

Not at all, I was just curious. I know people criticize these boxes so I was expecting water noise, but due to the small tank size and viewing plans the narrow front-to-back profile/peninsula mount was key for me. not much space to work with.

 

[Capt_Cully]

Looks cool. I'll be looking into it. I'm thinking a Low-Pro acrylic box and 2, 1 inch set ups. One live and the other in case I decide to increase turnover. I'll just ball valve it off for the time being.

How do you get the siphon started?
Is the open ended elbow on the right valved or wide open, as it's merely a fail safe?
How about a smooth, toothless, box with recesses that can be filled in with gutter guard?

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

The siphon starts automatically when the box fills with water - you need the opening of the full-siphon line pointing down, and significantly lower than the water level you'd like to run in the overflow box (like, a few inches). This keeps it submerged and allows it to act as a full siphon.

The open ended line is not valved or restricted at all - it's literally just an open line running to the sump. It's critical to have this clear line as a failsafe. Every few days I would get a tiny bit of water trickling down it as conditions in the tank changed over time.

Basically, the first time you run the system, you start with the siphon line's valve fully open. You turn on the return pump and the overflow fills with water, then the siphon starts. If you just leave the valve open, the siphon will suck the level in the box down quickly and burp air every few seconds - so, you shut the siphon line's valve slowly. As you do so, the water level in the overflow will stabilize and slowly start to raise up. You continue shutting it until the level is just below the edge on your emergency line, and then you're good to go - you won't need to fiddle with it again until you change things. After that point, it's self-starting just like any other reliable drain design.

You can use gutter guard or the mesh netting people use to make covers for open topped rimless tanks to keep livestock out of the overflow. A smooth overflow is my preference. The way you get a quiet overflow is by keeping flow into it smooth and "attached" i.e. the water just runs down the inside of the box. Teeth make this almost impossible.

It's best to use a gate valve on the siphon line since it gives better control. I had a cheap ball valve on mine and it took a few minutes of fiddling.

 

[Capt_Cully]

I'm really liking the sound of this. I'm shocked that I'd not heard of these alternatives before. I'll be contacting glass-holes to see about a custom box.

Anyone else local, proficient with acrylic?
Do you run hard plumbing or soft tubing on the siphon line? Would that make any difference in noise, or no? as it takes the gurgling air out of the equation?

 

[Conesus_Kid]

This is how I ran my 75 gallon. I drilled two holes in the back, and had glass cut to assemble my own overflow. The siphon was tuned with a ball valve, and the failsafe elbow pointed upwards. I would get water in the failsafe line whenever I had turned off the return pump and the siphon was priming, (and once when a snail got stuck in the siphon line ball valve). Spaflex was used for both lines.

Here's a pic of the glass overflow I made when I was siliconing it:

The only change I would make is that I wouldn't have painted the inside of that glass overflow with Krylon fusion. After about 6 months, it peeled off and ended up in the filter sock. I would make an acrylic box and run bulkheads through the tank wall (glass holes style), but set up the Herbie drain inside the acrylic box.

whisper quiet, baby. whisper quiet. :thumbsup:

 

[iamwrasseman]

Mark i have a place here in town that can make you anything out of acrylic . he is usually reasonable also and within five minutes of ABC .

 

[Mike1634]

thts sweet cant wait to see what you put in it

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

This is my overflow box:

What's the reason for the capped off T's, are they for clean out? How is the syphon at starting back up, do you need to rely on the backup drain until you get a chance to work the valve again. I can't see exactly how having the valve open all the way starts the syphon. The water should break somewhere down the drain allowing air to climb up the tube.

 

[captain7359]

Anyone else local, proficient with acrylic?

Mark, If you can't get someone local let me know and I can get one fabbed up for you. I've got a 24" one out of my 120 all ready to go too. I second the bean/siphon style overflow. I did one here a few months ago and it worked great. We didn't run dedicated lines to the sump, so there was a little noise from the safety line, but it was still pretty quiet.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

What's the reason for the capped off T's, are they for clean out? How is the syphon at starting back up, do you need to rely on the backup drain until you get a chance to work the valve again. I can't see exactly how having the valve open all the way starts the syphon. The water should break somewhere down the drain allowing air to climb up the tube.

The capped T's were for cleanout, but I never needed them (the tank wasn't really running that long unfortunately). Also, I figured that if I hated the herbie style and wanted to convert to Dursos, then I'd be all set - I'd just have to turn the one elbow down and poke a hole in the caps. Of course I LOVED the herbie style.

To set the record straight, you only have to play with the valve on the siphon during initial configuration, i.e. when you first set up the tank. Then, you don't touch it or even think about it unless something on the tank changes (i.e. if you swap in a new return pump or T off the return line for a reactor or something). Once it is initially configured, it "just works."

That said, as someone else mentioned above, if/when the return pump shuts down and is turned back on, you will get some water down the emergency line for a few minutes while the air flushes out of the main drain line. So it is definitely crucial to have the emergency line.

 

[jacksonpt]

I'm speaking from my experience here, so FWIW...

When I ran a similar setup (2 drains, 1 full siphon, 1 open), I had a REALLY REALLY hard time getting the siphon line dialed in so it exactly matched the return pumps output - i.e. the siphon drained water at the same rate as the return pump supplied water. So for me, what everyone terms the "emergency" drain was actually a really low flow open channel drain that handled the little bit of water not handled by the siphon. Does that make any sense?

I think from an ease of use/flexibility standpoint, 3 drains is a far better option (see Bean's design). One drain would be full siphon, dialed in so it drained 95% of the water supplied by the return pump. The second drain would be an open channel, very low volume so air and water don't mix, thus no gurgling, thus very quiet. The third drain would end up being the emergency drain.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I'm speaking from my experience here, so FWIW...

When I ran a similar setup (2 drains, 1 full siphon, 1 open), I had a REALLY REALLY hard time getting the siphon line dialed in so it exactly matched the return pumps output - i.e. the siphon drained water at the same rate as the return pump supplied water. So for me, what everyone terms the "emergency" drain was actually a really low flow open channel drain that handled the little bit of water not handled by the siphon. Does that make any sense?

I definitely struggled at first. I attribute it to a few things:

1) I used a ball valve. It's hard to make fine adjustments with a ball valve. A gate valve would make this MUCH easier.
2) I had a LOT of other stuff going on with the return line - it was T'd for two turf scrubbers and a media reactor. Any adjustments on any of those meant the balance would be thrown off a bit, requiring adjustment of the siphon valve.
3) For a few days my ATO was not operational, which meant head pressure on the return pump was varying by an inch or two over the course of an average day, which meant the adjustment would be off by a tiny bit.

That said, I still feel this is an optimal drain design. If you use a gate valve and an ATO and you're not constantly screwing with the flow rate for the return pump, it should only take a few minutes of adjustment and then you can forget about it. If you close the valve a bit too much and there's a little tiny bit of water running down the emergency line, it's not a big deal. If you don't close it enough the siphon will burp air every half an hour or so - again, not a big deal. And if you end up in either of those situations, you just give the valve a nudge. Recursively, after a few nudges, I've always gotten it to balance out.

I think from an ease of use/flexibility standpoint, 3 drains is a far better option (see Bean's design). One drain would be full siphon, dialed in so it drained 95% of the water supplied by the return pump. The second drain would be an open channel, very low volume so air and water don't mix, thus no gurgling, thus very quiet. The third drain would end up being the emergency drain.

Not trying to be argumentative here, just stating my point of view. I see the three-drain system as overly redundant and space-consuming. With the standard herbie style (one full siphon, one "emergency" line) you still have <100% backup capacity via the emergency line. And, the three-standpipe system isn't any easier to adjust - you're still going to be fiddling with the valve to get the flow set at the "best" rate - it just might be a different endpoint than with a herbie, but it still takes as much finesse to arrive there. The only real advantage I can see to the three-channel system is that it's extra extra EXTRA redundant. And, although I'm the most paranoid person I know in this hobby, it's TOO redundant as far as I'm concerned. I can't ever imagine a case where I'd need THAT level of redundancy. It also takes up 50% more space! But, to each his own. Cully, hope you don't mind us taking this thread on a tangent!

 

[superkat]

i've been locked up in a dark theater for weeks...just saw this. Congrats Cully! What a great tank!!!! Fill 'er up!!!