Jebao WP25 Information
- Thread starter Sacohen
- Start date
currymuetze
Member
Thx
Does anyone know when FS is gonna ship the Pump with New Controller? I ordered last week but didnt get a Shipping Mail yet.
Does anyone know when FS is gonna ship the Pump with New Controller? I ordered last week but didnt get a Shipping Mail yet.
SimonSKL
New member
Macboat seems to have some connection with Jebao to be able to get the first batch of WP25 production run by air shipment. He is quite confident in his earlier post that all will get the controller upgrade at no additional cost. I believe he can.
dougdstecklein
New member
While I agree that it is the price you pay for purchasing something without fully knowing the features, Sacohen was in contact with Wynston who told him it would have speed control. I believe it was Jebao's intention to release the pump with speed control, but as ggsteve said:
The pump was ready, the new controller was not, and because of the great interest in the product they released it with the old controller that they already had in stock.
While there was no official release of the specifications of the pump, we were led to believe by Wynston, a Jebao representative, that it would include speed control; therefore, the right thing for Jebao to do in this situation would be to replace the newly purchased old controllers with the new controllers with speed control.
I believe Jebao will do the right thing and replace the controllers.
The pump was ready, the new controller was not, and because of the great interest in the product they released it with the old controller that they already had in stock.
While there was no official release of the specifications of the pump, we were led to believe by Wynston, a Jebao representative, that it would include speed control; therefore, the right thing for Jebao to do in this situation would be to replace the newly purchased old controllers with the new controllers with speed control.
I believe Jebao will do the right thing and replace the controllers.
Got a couple of WP25's hooked up to my 76g Oceanic half-circle on Friday. Fedex usually shows up around Noon, ended up being 7pm on Friday. I felt like a kid waiting for Christmas… I've had this tank for over a year and haven't yet found flow that I’ve been happy with, so needless to say, I’ve been anxious to try these out.
Out of the box, like many others have said, I was surprised at how durable they felt. You kind of expect that Walmart/cheapy feel when you consider the price tag, but they seem solid. Super strong magnet too, out of the box it took some real effort to take them apart (the wetside comes attached to the dry side.)
I let them run in some vinegar dosed RO water while I mounted some of my loose frags... heard a lot of stories about these things blowing corals around so I wanted to be prepared for battle.
Finally got them in my tank and was not disappointed. In fact, two of them at full power are entirely too much unless they’re both in ‘L’ mode (apparently one third of the power.) I've settled on alternating them in 'Else' mode with my Apex for now - right side on for 15 minutes, then it shuts off and the left side comes on for 15 minutes. When the lights go out, I have it timed with the Apex so only one of them comes on every 15 minutes (the other off for the night), sort of a make-shift night mode until I figure out how to dial them back/control speed with the Apex.
My sand has never looked cleaner and the stuff that these things have pulled out from in between the crevices of my rock work is pretty amazing. Dead pods floating around, etc. My skimmer filled up twice as fast as usual this weekend, which I doubt is a coincidence.
Pumps are both relatively quiet. Obviously this will be subjective, but with the trickling in my sump, and a rattling Mag 9.5 return pump, I can’t hear them when standing more than 4 feet from my tank. If I put my ear up to them, I can hear them humming. I imagine this would be more audible if you had an extremely quiet system, but it works for me. I can’t hear them at all when my budget T-5 fixture fan is running.
I’ve never owned an MP10 or MP40 so unfortunately I can’t make any comparisons there as far as flow or noise.
Couple of words of caution:
1. When people say the night sensor is small, they mean REALLY small. As in much smaller than your fingernail. I forgot all of the warnings that I read on here, too much excitement as I was unboxing them, and then sure enough, one of them was MIA. Later found it on the floor. No big deal as I am not planning on using the sensor but just a word of caution for those of you who are.
2. Mine came with some double-sided tape to mount the controllers… this stuff is incredibly effective – almost too effective! Being a genius, I first mounted my controller upside down. I felt like I was literally going to break apart the controller trying to rip it off to remount it correctly. If you use the adhesive, I’d make sure you’re not planning on moving the controller anytime soon.
In conclusion, I've replaced 5 (five!!) powerheads in my tank and am pretty sure ONE of these WP25’s would’ve done a better job than the five. 5 powerheads in a 76g tank looked ugly as sin. I previously had:
(2) Koralia #2’s (600 GPH each)
(3) Maxijets: (1) MJ-900 [230 GPH] and (2) MJ-1200's [296 GPH].
The odd shape of my tank including a center overflow makes flow a nightmare... pretty sure those days are behind me. Still fiddling around with placement in my tank, but thus far, a very happy customer, and at the group buy price it seems like a home run (fingers crossed they can last a year - I’ll consider that a victory.)
Thanks Macboat.
Out of the box, like many others have said, I was surprised at how durable they felt. You kind of expect that Walmart/cheapy feel when you consider the price tag, but they seem solid. Super strong magnet too, out of the box it took some real effort to take them apart (the wetside comes attached to the dry side.)
I let them run in some vinegar dosed RO water while I mounted some of my loose frags... heard a lot of stories about these things blowing corals around so I wanted to be prepared for battle.
Finally got them in my tank and was not disappointed. In fact, two of them at full power are entirely too much unless they’re both in ‘L’ mode (apparently one third of the power.) I've settled on alternating them in 'Else' mode with my Apex for now - right side on for 15 minutes, then it shuts off and the left side comes on for 15 minutes. When the lights go out, I have it timed with the Apex so only one of them comes on every 15 minutes (the other off for the night), sort of a make-shift night mode until I figure out how to dial them back/control speed with the Apex.
My sand has never looked cleaner and the stuff that these things have pulled out from in between the crevices of my rock work is pretty amazing. Dead pods floating around, etc. My skimmer filled up twice as fast as usual this weekend, which I doubt is a coincidence.
Pumps are both relatively quiet. Obviously this will be subjective, but with the trickling in my sump, and a rattling Mag 9.5 return pump, I can’t hear them when standing more than 4 feet from my tank. If I put my ear up to them, I can hear them humming. I imagine this would be more audible if you had an extremely quiet system, but it works for me. I can’t hear them at all when my budget T-5 fixture fan is running.
I’ve never owned an MP10 or MP40 so unfortunately I can’t make any comparisons there as far as flow or noise.
Couple of words of caution:
1. When people say the night sensor is small, they mean REALLY small. As in much smaller than your fingernail. I forgot all of the warnings that I read on here, too much excitement as I was unboxing them, and then sure enough, one of them was MIA. Later found it on the floor. No big deal as I am not planning on using the sensor but just a word of caution for those of you who are.
2. Mine came with some double-sided tape to mount the controllers… this stuff is incredibly effective – almost too effective! Being a genius, I first mounted my controller upside down. I felt like I was literally going to break apart the controller trying to rip it off to remount it correctly. If you use the adhesive, I’d make sure you’re not planning on moving the controller anytime soon.
In conclusion, I've replaced 5 (five!!) powerheads in my tank and am pretty sure ONE of these WP25’s would’ve done a better job than the five. 5 powerheads in a 76g tank looked ugly as sin. I previously had:
(2) Koralia #2’s (600 GPH each)
(3) Maxijets: (1) MJ-900 [230 GPH] and (2) MJ-1200's [296 GPH].
The odd shape of my tank including a center overflow makes flow a nightmare... pretty sure those days are behind me. Still fiddling around with placement in my tank, but thus far, a very happy customer, and at the group buy price it seems like a home run (fingers crossed they can last a year - I’ll consider that a victory.)
Thanks Macboat.
shifty51008
12-5 Chiefs record
I have also came to the same conclusion that 2 in a 75 gal tank is way to much unless on low. I do like the idea of the anti-sync on a controller though. I would get a controller but it would have to be hooked up in the basement with my sump and other equipment which IMO kinda defeats the purpose unless I keep going down stairs.
I didn't use the 2 sided tape though, I used 3m plastic velcro to mount mine.
I didn't use the 2 sided tape though, I used 3m plastic velcro to mount mine.
dougdstecklein
New member
Good review. Thanks!
reefermad619
New member
I've got 2, 25s in my 180 and he flow seems good. They're both at full power though.
Ron Reefman
Active member
So does anybody know, and is anybody 100% sure what the status is for the Jebao wp40 & 25 as it relates to the Tunze letter? I'm not looking for 'I think' or I assume' or even 'I heard'. I whant to know:
1) Is the Tunze letter just a letter to their distributors asking/telling them to stop selling Jebao 40's & 25's?
2) Is the US government telling everybody to stop sell them in the US?
3) Is US Customs going to try and stop imports of 40's & 25's direct from Jebao into the US by distributors?
4) Is US Customs going to try and stop imports into the US by end users buying them from Hong Kong?
Number 1 seems reasonable and likely to be the real situation, Numbers 2 & 3 seems a bit harder to believe, but possible.. Numbers 4 seems almost impossible to believe or enforce. I don't know the reality of the situation, and from all the BS in the other threads, I don't think many, if anybody else, knows either. So any ideas about who I can contact to find out the truth? I'm open to suggestions on that part.
1) Is the Tunze letter just a letter to their distributors asking/telling them to stop selling Jebao 40's & 25's?
2) Is the US government telling everybody to stop sell them in the US?
3) Is US Customs going to try and stop imports of 40's & 25's direct from Jebao into the US by distributors?
4) Is US Customs going to try and stop imports into the US by end users buying them from Hong Kong?
Number 1 seems reasonable and likely to be the real situation, Numbers 2 & 3 seems a bit harder to believe, but possible.. Numbers 4 seems almost impossible to believe or enforce. I don't know the reality of the situation, and from all the BS in the other threads, I don't think many, if anybody else, knows either. So any ideas about who I can contact to find out the truth? I'm open to suggestions on that part.
SimonSKL
New member
I am sure many of you have read the discussion and debate regarding Tunze accusing Jebao WP40 and WP25 of patent infringement on multiple threads. Among all the comments that were posted I valued the comments made by one individual the most, Joshlawless who claimed he is a patent lawyer. These are his quoted comments (in green) that I pulled regarding the Tunze's US Design Patent D567,821.
"œUtility patents are for protecting inventions.
Design patents are for protection ornamental designs.
If Tunze had obtained a UTILITY patent for their invention, I would be cheering their appropriate use of the patent system.
Tunze obtained a (likely invalid) DESIGN patent for the ornamental design of their Turbelle pumps. Which have no ornamental features. They are abusing the patent system, and bullying small vendors with an inappropriate threat to sue them, and are skirting dangerously close to unfair competition and illegal anti-competitive practices.
Design patents are intended to promote the "decorative arts." They have no relationship to "inventions."
To prevent people from trying to get patent protection for products that don't deserve them, the US Patent and Trademark Office and the Federal courts explicitly forbid design patents from being used to product (I think he meant "œprotect") the functional aspects of a product."
"Design patents are cheap and easy to get, largely because they provide very little patent protection. They only prevent someone from making a product that looks substantially the same as the one in the design patent illustrations. They don't protect the function of a pump, and to the extent any of the design features are functional instead of ornamental (e.g., the design of the cage surrounding the impeller might be functional - letting in water and not snails), then the patent provides no coverage for those features."
"œAny feature which is primarily functional is ineligible for design patent protection -- only the ornamental features are protected by a design patent.
If Tunze had arranged the water inlet slits in the housing such that they spelled out TUNZE, instead of being parallel slits, then that might be an ornamental feature (although this would be arguable at trial, because they still serve a function).
If Tunze had embossed anemones and clownfish around the outer surface of the nozzle (which is currently un-adorned), then that would be an ornamental feature, and if Jebao's pump similarly had clownfish and anemones in the same place on their pump, then Tunze would have a case. That's the kind of thing a design patent is for."
"œThe fact that there are other ways to configure a directional pump would tend to show that Tunze's configuration is at least partly ornamental. But, if the way Tunze has configured their pump provides improved functionality over those other designs, then that configuration is not ornamental, and is therefore outside the scope of the design patent's claim.
Does the round Turbelle housing permit the pump to be directed over a wider range of angles inside the aquarium (when compared to the earlier blockish housing)? Then that would tend to indicate that it's a functional choice."
"The claims for the Tunze magnetic mount require that one of the sides have "a plurality of elastically deformable holding cups." Haven't seen a photo of the Jebao magnetic mount to know whether it would meet this (and every other limitation), but it's clear that Tunze doesn't have a patent on holding things with magnets (e.g., Vortechs, algae scrapers, pH probe mounts, dosing tube mounts, etc., etc.)"
"They ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT BE STOPPED AT CUSTOMS. For that kind of injunctive relief, a company has to WIN A LAWSUIT in a COURT OF LAW.
As far as I can see, all that has happened so far is that Tunze has sent threatening letters to various vendors claiming 1) that they have a valid patent that 2) is infringed by the WP-40. Both of these would have to be established in a trial (or administrative proceeding, for the ITC) before they could expect the US government (customs) to start seizing shipments."
"œUtility patents are for protecting inventions.
Design patents are for protection ornamental designs.
If Tunze had obtained a UTILITY patent for their invention, I would be cheering their appropriate use of the patent system.
Tunze obtained a (likely invalid) DESIGN patent for the ornamental design of their Turbelle pumps. Which have no ornamental features. They are abusing the patent system, and bullying small vendors with an inappropriate threat to sue them, and are skirting dangerously close to unfair competition and illegal anti-competitive practices.
Design patents are intended to promote the "decorative arts." They have no relationship to "inventions."
To prevent people from trying to get patent protection for products that don't deserve them, the US Patent and Trademark Office and the Federal courts explicitly forbid design patents from being used to product (I think he meant "œprotect") the functional aspects of a product."
"Design patents are cheap and easy to get, largely because they provide very little patent protection. They only prevent someone from making a product that looks substantially the same as the one in the design patent illustrations. They don't protect the function of a pump, and to the extent any of the design features are functional instead of ornamental (e.g., the design of the cage surrounding the impeller might be functional - letting in water and not snails), then the patent provides no coverage for those features."
"œAny feature which is primarily functional is ineligible for design patent protection -- only the ornamental features are protected by a design patent.
If Tunze had arranged the water inlet slits in the housing such that they spelled out TUNZE, instead of being parallel slits, then that might be an ornamental feature (although this would be arguable at trial, because they still serve a function).
If Tunze had embossed anemones and clownfish around the outer surface of the nozzle (which is currently un-adorned), then that would be an ornamental feature, and if Jebao's pump similarly had clownfish and anemones in the same place on their pump, then Tunze would have a case. That's the kind of thing a design patent is for."
"œThe fact that there are other ways to configure a directional pump would tend to show that Tunze's configuration is at least partly ornamental. But, if the way Tunze has configured their pump provides improved functionality over those other designs, then that configuration is not ornamental, and is therefore outside the scope of the design patent's claim.
Does the round Turbelle housing permit the pump to be directed over a wider range of angles inside the aquarium (when compared to the earlier blockish housing)? Then that would tend to indicate that it's a functional choice."
"The claims for the Tunze magnetic mount require that one of the sides have "a plurality of elastically deformable holding cups." Haven't seen a photo of the Jebao magnetic mount to know whether it would meet this (and every other limitation), but it's clear that Tunze doesn't have a patent on holding things with magnets (e.g., Vortechs, algae scrapers, pH probe mounts, dosing tube mounts, etc., etc.)"
"They ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT BE STOPPED AT CUSTOMS. For that kind of injunctive relief, a company has to WIN A LAWSUIT in a COURT OF LAW.
As far as I can see, all that has happened so far is that Tunze has sent threatening letters to various vendors claiming 1) that they have a valid patent that 2) is infringed by the WP-40. Both of these would have to be established in a trial (or administrative proceeding, for the ITC) before they could expect the US government (customs) to start seizing shipments."
Cloudburst2000
Active member
And I agree totally with Joshlawless. I have seen this exact same thing with mid-century modern furniture. There are tons of knock-offs of famous designer pieces by Eames, Knoll, etc. Making a knock-off piece of furniture is not illegal unless patents are infringed upon. However, most of the designers of the furniture didn't truly invent anything. They came up with a new design for a chair or a table but they didn't truly invent anything. The most they did was modification of an already existing entity. Some do have design patents for purely decorative details that serve no function other than adding aesthetics to the piece. An original manufacturer did successfully win a case against a compny that made a knock-off of their dresser. The only reason that the original manufacturer won the case was because the knock-off had copied not only the dresser design but also copied the decorative etching on the drawers. The decorative etching was simply decorative. It did not serve a utility...a purpose...other than looking pretty so this etching was protected under the design patent. If it had not been for the knock-off company copying the etching also, the original manufacturer would have lost the case. Why? Because a dresser, drawers, handles. etc, all serve some type of utility and are not purely decorative details. Therefore, a design patent would not apply to such details.
That is why the Tunze patents are bogus. They filed a design patent not a utility patent. Tell me what part of those pumps do not serve some type of a purpose. All the parts serve a purpose so a design patent does not truly apply. Tunze knew they couldn't get a utility patent because they did invent anything. They just tweaked an existing design. So they tried to be sly and filed a design patent instead. The customs office doesn't have the resources to thoroughly investigate all patents that come through their office. It would take them years. They put trust into companies not to try to 'fool' the system. Tunze was bsaically trying to limit competition with the bogus patent so that they could keep their prices high. It's a common business practice even if it isn't ethical. The Tunze design patents would never hold up in a court of law which you can be sure Tunze already knows. I don't understand why some people are so vigorously defending Tunze when they are actually hindering progress in the market. I am sure other companies would have been developing their own rounded powerheads if Tunze had not filed the bogus patent. And I am not just talking about Chinese companies here. There are tons of companies (many in the US) who make powerheads and this bogus patent hurts them too. However, taking Tunze to court to get the patent overturned would cost the companies lots of money and time. This is not the first time that a bogus patent has hindered progress in the aquarium industry. Who remembers the bogus Orbitech patent that hindered LED lighting for years in the aquarium industry. AI was the only company willing to pay to use the obviously bogus patent. Finally, all the other companies got sick of not being able to innovate and compete in the LED market and the case went to court. The bogus patents were overturned and LEDs took off. How much further could we be using LEDs on our tanks had it not been for a bogus patent? Why were people so up in arms over that obviously bogus patent but not over Tunze's bogus patent? They both could and probably do hinder competition and innovation in the aquarium industry. Perhaps there are companies out there who could have put out a better powerhead then Tunze but are hindered by a bogus patent. Just food for thought.
That is why the Tunze patents are bogus. They filed a design patent not a utility patent. Tell me what part of those pumps do not serve some type of a purpose. All the parts serve a purpose so a design patent does not truly apply. Tunze knew they couldn't get a utility patent because they did invent anything. They just tweaked an existing design. So they tried to be sly and filed a design patent instead. The customs office doesn't have the resources to thoroughly investigate all patents that come through their office. It would take them years. They put trust into companies not to try to 'fool' the system. Tunze was bsaically trying to limit competition with the bogus patent so that they could keep their prices high. It's a common business practice even if it isn't ethical. The Tunze design patents would never hold up in a court of law which you can be sure Tunze already knows. I don't understand why some people are so vigorously defending Tunze when they are actually hindering progress in the market. I am sure other companies would have been developing their own rounded powerheads if Tunze had not filed the bogus patent. And I am not just talking about Chinese companies here. There are tons of companies (many in the US) who make powerheads and this bogus patent hurts them too. However, taking Tunze to court to get the patent overturned would cost the companies lots of money and time. This is not the first time that a bogus patent has hindered progress in the aquarium industry. Who remembers the bogus Orbitech patent that hindered LED lighting for years in the aquarium industry. AI was the only company willing to pay to use the obviously bogus patent. Finally, all the other companies got sick of not being able to innovate and compete in the LED market and the case went to court. The bogus patents were overturned and LEDs took off. How much further could we be using LEDs on our tanks had it not been for a bogus patent? Why were people so up in arms over that obviously bogus patent but not over Tunze's bogus patent? They both could and probably do hinder competition and innovation in the aquarium industry. Perhaps there are companies out there who could have put out a better powerhead then Tunze but are hindered by a bogus patent. Just food for thought.
Cloudburst2000
Active member
That said Ecotech was truly able to get a utility patent. They didn't just tweak an existing design. They completely came up with a new and genuis way of making powerheads with the motor and cord being on the outside of the tank. That is true innovation (not just tweaking an already existing design) and deserved a utility patent. Tunze's pumps while good aren't truly innovative and genuis like the Ecotech pumps are. They simply tweaked the shape of an already existing powerhead design.
joshlawless
New member
Thank you kindly!
Does anyone actually know which patents were cited as being violated? It has been assumed it is the design patent, but it could also be this one.
http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/20060192062
So far we have only heard supposition and a ruling of an invalid patent by a patent lawyer. Lawyers do not have the privilege of declaring something invalid, that is what a judge decides. It is opinion, and may not have all of the facts, which none of us do. If it does go before a judge, then we will have a ruling, not an opinion. If Tunze is making an effort to protect their products, that is not a bad thing, if it were your product you would hope to be able to protect it as well.
Josh, your insight is appreciated but in reality it is just your opinion unless you have become a judge and will be ruling on this case. In your line of work, I would think you would have appreciation for the patent system and the very limited protection it does offer. If you feel you have the authority to claim it is an invalid patent, I would be interested in knowing how you acquired that authority? If it just your opinion that one or may patents may be ruled invalid, then that I can understand.
http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/20060192062
So far we have only heard supposition and a ruling of an invalid patent by a patent lawyer. Lawyers do not have the privilege of declaring something invalid, that is what a judge decides. It is opinion, and may not have all of the facts, which none of us do. If it does go before a judge, then we will have a ruling, not an opinion. If Tunze is making an effort to protect their products, that is not a bad thing, if it were your product you would hope to be able to protect it as well.
Josh, your insight is appreciated but in reality it is just your opinion unless you have become a judge and will be ruling on this case. In your line of work, I would think you would have appreciation for the patent system and the very limited protection it does offer. If you feel you have the authority to claim it is an invalid patent, I would be interested in knowing how you acquired that authority? If it just your opinion that one or may patents may be ruled invalid, then that I can understand.
fishgate
Active member
BTW: They are still all over ebay....
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trk...3.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=Jebao+WP40&_sacat=0&_from=R40
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trk...3.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=Jebao+WP40&_sacat=0&_from=R40
