Join me for a strange one...

My concern is also the backlash

You will have it at the gear/acme interface. In the ACME itself and in each component of your drive train. I am not sure how many inches of travel per screw revolution you have, but you could easily end op with 1/4" of difference or more from corner to corner.
 
My concern is also the backlash

You will have it at the gear/acme interface. In the ACME itself and in each component of your drive train. I am not sure how many inches of travel per screw revolution you have, but you could easily end op with 1/4" of difference or more from corner to corner.

That is something I was wondering as well. There is really no way to independently adjust a corner once it is tied to the other side. What about splitting the shaft and tying it back together with some kind of a collar so you can adjust separately if you have to once everything is done.

Or you could weld on some of the large swivel/leveling feet like I used on my steel stand. They are 2 -1/2" w/ 5/8" thread. Rated at 5000+ lb per. Just to be able to trim everything. I can adjust my 125 while it is totally full pretty easily with them.

similar to these: http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=5364517&PMT4NO=88728175
 
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Found the problem I was having with your images. My security program had flagged the host website as passing malware/spyware and blocked it.

That's what I thought might be happening.
Lot better with pictures isn't it! :)

I'm sure this is a dumb question, but how are you doing your plumbing? (And what is stopping you from building a stable foot stool and putting an access hatch above the tank, and skipping the movement altogether?) [/QUOTE]

Plumbing: A very good question! And a large problem.

Foot stool... Now why didn't I think of that? DOH!

Actually the problem is... hmmm. Ah! Go back to my picture of the painting.

Note that the fireplace opening does not go to the ceiling. It's 15 inches lower than the ceiling. This is because a huge 4x16" beam crosses there to support the roof across the 6 foot span, that is unsupported, due to the previous chimney.

I'm 6 foot. There will be no furniture nearby to sit on and gaze into the tank. For the effect of "being in the water" I need a foot of the tank above my eyes. When the tank is where I want it for visual impact there is only a 4" gap between the tank and the bottom of That Beam. Not much access for a 36" deep tank doncha know. :hmm3:



Are you concerned about any gear lash potentially causing problems?
T

It does cause greatly increased drag for the lifting motor. Enough so that my gearing has to be twice what the math describes. Luckily the system isn't completely rigid. It can deform in the small ways needed to prevent jamming.



My concern is also the backlash

You will have it at the gear/acme interface. In the ACME itself and in each component of your drive train. I am not sure how many inches of travel per screw revolution you have, but you could easily end op with 1/4" of difference or more from corner to corner.

It is probably about 1/10th inch per revolution. It's very slow. I will explain how I've attempted to deal with it on my next pass as pictures will help.
 
3cy12itf3s.jpg

WHAT is going on at the far right!? Looks a lot like the Deep Sea Horizon oil gusher!
 
WHAT is going on at the far right!? Looks a lot like the Deep Sea Horizon oil gusher!


That's a 'wave'.

Notice the small hoses going to the jumps? Those are plumbed to the suction line for a large pump.

The purpose is to pull any air that gets trapped in the high part of the jumps out. Once you have air in the jump filling it down to the bottom of the cross-over part all flow stops. Then the CL pump will proceed to pump all the water out of the source tank and into the now isolated tank. Problem is a 55g tank doesn't hold 110g. :(

So I added those lines. I went further and added a solenoid valve that I open for 5 seconds to atmosphere in the manifold those lines run to. The siphons then drop about 2 inches as air fills them. Then the pump is spooled up to 70Hz which promptly sucks all that air back out and shatters it in the pump. The air returns as millions of tiny bubbles that white-out the middle and right tanks. The pump holds at that speed for about 8 seconds then spools down to a stop. In a minute or so there are no bubbles left in the tank. That's what I call a Wave Cycle and that's what you're seeing.

The cycles come randomly between 1 and 20 minutes during daylight hours.

In preparation for my new tank that system is shut down and the pump has been rebuilt and modded and will be central to this new setup.
 
Continuing on the stand build.


Before embarking on construction I needed to get a geardrive motor and plan the gearing. What size? I needed the torque required to turn the crank on a jack under the expected loading.

To empirically get this number I drove to the local building material store that has a truck scale. The readout is on the wall. I backed up so my bumper was hanging two feet over the truck scale. I placed a jack under the square tube steel bumper on my one ton diesel pickup truck so jacking up my truck would press down on the truck scale. Meanwhile I could read the actual weight I was lifting directly from the scale.

I jacked until I had 1/4 of the aquarium weight reading on the scale. Then I positioned the jack handle so it was at the 5 o'clock position. Using a spring hand scale I pressed upward on the jack handle until I got smooth motion going. Then as the handle passed thru 3 o'clock I read the spring scale number. That number multiplied by the crank handle length gave the actual torque value needed to crank a single jack in my future setup. (Theoretically)




iie2iazue0.jpg


Here it is assembled and painted.

Painted... Let me tell you about that. I went to the local industrial/automotive paint supplier. I like bright things, (or I would go fresh water - :) ), so I picked International Orange. I love the color. It's DuPont two part polyurethane.

The paint was $60 for a quart. I have bare metal.. So I'm told I need primer.. Primer costs $190 for a quart! That was a non-starter. So I asked what else might work as primer. The counter man told me metal etching sub primer and a primer that goes over that. Each can was about $10 bucks, 4 cans.

I cleaned all the metal with lacquer thinner and set up my airless sprayer. Then I etched and primed. Waited as instructed and then painted everything.. and I mean EVERYTHING.

My whole shop was over-sprayed. My phone, my hand tools, my.. everything.

Once the paint had hardened and cured I discovered that it chipped off of the primer with great ease!!! :furious:

What really hacks me off is that the over-spray that landed on bare uncleaned metal is permanently bonded to whatever it hit. Unused tube that it landed on has to have it GROUND off if you want it off.

So now I must treat my stand with kid gloves BECAUSE I listened to that idiot and did $40 of priming with incompatible primer. Live and learn. If you use the DuPont Polyurethane DO NOT bother priming. It is awesome by itself on any metal.

h52x99cau5.jpg


Let me point out some highlights. This is the view from the back as that's where all the action is.

B) Is the control panel. I will eventually need to extend it some. It has the VFD and a breaker for the geardrive motor mounted on the front side.

A) Is the three phase gearmotor (SEW). It's 1/3 hp with a 158RPM output. It's a metric motor so the shaft was 20mm(?). Anyway I was using American chain and sprockets as they are more common and cost less. So I machined out the hole of a smaller ID sprocket to fit the shaft. When I was done I'd gone too far. So with the keyway and set screws the sprocket went around in an oval. NOT GOOD as that implies de-acceleration and acceleration. 3000 lbs? Bad. So I had to get a new sprocket and do it better.

J) Is the aforementioned sprocket.

K) Is the primary chain. It drives two single sprockets on the left. Then the second sprocket drives an identical sprocket on the right side. This provides the same ratio so no hanky panky ensues.

D) Is the secondary chain that drives the right side. To get the chain right I had to use a half-link.

C) Are the diagonals for anti racking. Note no front anything. The front side of the feet are only constrained by the indexed top where it drops into the tops of the jacks. (F)

E) Are the front-back anti-racking.

A very important point to note is that this stand and its racking are backed up by the aquarium being constrained inside of the fireplace chase. The tank can only move backwards about 2 inches and sideways only about a 1/2". So an earthquake hopefully won't result in a BIG problem.

L) Is the outside jack tube. M) Is the inside sliding tube. N) Is the static height adjust that lets you permanently offset the stand in 3" increments. H) Are the pins for that height adjustment.

I) A concern brought up by many of you is the lash-up or binding of the four jacks working in concert. That will occur if the stand is NOT on the level when resting. With that much dead weight sitting on it, if one leg is short, then the entire stand will distort as the load is placed on it. That distortion GREATLY increases the lifting load by binding and increasing sliding friction. You can't see the distortion but its there.. Hence the little piece of steel under that foot on my looks-level-but-it's-not shop floor.


39qyrd5a8b.jpg


Here's an oblique close up of the drive mechanism. Note the added zerk fitting.


9enqbid67h.jpg


Here's looking down thru the top of the stand. You can see the VFD and the breaker.

OK crunch time. Time to test this thing before loading it up with a tank.






t1zy04vasu.jpg


The only thing at hand was clay. Lots and lots of clay. 3,250 lbs of it. I brought it over on a forklift and set on the stand perfectly centered - which took a long time. Any bowing you can see in this picture is lens fiction. There is bowing but it is in no way visible from this point of view.





2ydvfmao92.jpg



Here is what each box weighs. But that is net! There is actually more weight from the boxes and the pallet. It should be noted that THIS IS NOT A UNIFORM DISTRIBUTED LOAD. It is a point load. This makes all sorts of things worse. It makes the stand feet want to bow outward at the bottom. This increases binding and friction. It will cause the top to deflect much more than a distributed load would.

The test:
Raising the load was painful and potentially destructive. A wattmeter showed that the gear drive was drawing 1900 watts!! Keep in mind that this is a 250W gearmotor. I was astounded that that cheap TECO FM50 dished that out for minutes!!! The load crept up ever-so-slowly whining and making a frightful keening tortured sound.


After a while things sped up! Wow. WHOA!! I noticed the secondary gear was spinning on the shaft! This meant the right side was rising and the left side was not.



j8vzd1g3bl.jpg


This was the solution. I welded the two gears together.


But this didn't help with the massive overloading being experienced by the gearmotor.

This test meant that the actual torque value needed to raise this structure far exceeded my original empirical jack test numbers. (The binding and the sliding.)

To find the new ACTUAL numbers I used that bad gear I made. I welded a large nut on it and installed it on the end of the motor shaft in front of the primary gear. (you can see it in the fourth picture up.)

I then took a deflecting bar torque wrench and turned the shaft lifting the clay. This gave me the actual torque needed. It was about 4 times my original number!!

I asked all over for solutions. No one had one. I stared at it for a few weeks before figuring one out..
 
How are the lovejoys holding up? Are they contributing to the lash? A Dodge PareFlex, D-Flex, of Chain coupling would have less lash.

Give the paint some time... The polymer chains will grow stronger as time passes and should bond much better!
 
The Lovejoys seem dang near rigid. A chain coupling would've been a much better idea. Dang.

See, the plan was to just open a coupling and give the various jacks any turns they needed to get them all equally loaded on the uneven floor. That would minimize any binding or fighting between the jacks. Turns out that those rigid close coupled/painted drive lines make that impossible. So now I have to shim the feet. With a chain coupling I could've just opened the chain. {sigh}

Speaking of drive shafts. Two of those jacks have the drive shaft coming out the rear side of the jack so the jacks all go up or down correctly. If you just used the original outputs two would be going down while two would go up.
 
Have I got a solution? You bet!

What was needed was gear box. I needed to trade speed for power. I figured out where and how to do it.


8d3d908sfy.jpg


View from the front. I needed somewhere to mount the plate for a gear reduction setup.





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View from the back.

Notice the gear motor drives the big gear. This is about a 5:1 ratio. Thus the torque load is reduced about 5 times from the motor. The stand moves up and down 5 times slower for the trade. That time is not a problem to me.

This did the trick - EXCEPT! This means the chain I picked based on my original jack study was now having much more load on it than expected. It had so much load that with this setup I was bending the chain. It would become stiff and not want to go around corners - like a rusty bicycle chain. The chain that was being hammered was the one between the new gear reduction and the right side drive shaft. Of course this poor piece of chain was having to transmit the entire stand load.

Ultimately I put two of the small gears on the reduction gear. Now each side is driven independently off of the new gear reduction set.






o9ghqtshbz.jpg



Back to testing. Here I stacked up almost 4,000lbs. This is heavily loaded!






th9bb8rmop.jpg


Remember the massive overload on the motor with the single reduction setup? Check out this new power loading. Wow, I'm happy now.







pp5h7ndnzi.jpg


As for the resulting deflection? With a huge point load I only have about 1/16th inch. It should be substantially less with a tank on it. I'm very satisfied.




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On the way home!

I got two tubes of special grease and pumped it into the four zerk fittings.

Notice the right side chain now diving down to the gear reduction.

The tie-wraps are because the top just sits on the legs. With the tie-wraps we could pick it up and carry the stand without the top separating. It weighs about 100lbs total.
 
I have been following this along and love this build. But please pardon, my lack of engineering savy when I ask this again. I kinda asked this early on but, Isnt that chain bearing the entire load of the tank? That seems really risky to me. There are hundreds of points of failure. Being an avid cyclist, I know that chains break. While you may have stops (pegs) in the jacks when the tank reaches a destination point, there is little else protecting your tank while the chain is in motion. I have to think if the chain breaks high or low... even the slightest movement can spell disaster. Will you put a wood surface under the tank to protect the bottom from being hit from a chain should it snap? I dont want to sound negative, but I would hate to see such a remarkable build fail because of a chain.
 
I guess I was wondering, what prevents the weight from causing the jack screw from reversing when the motor is off?
 
I guess I was wondering, what prevents the weight from causing the jack screw from reversing when the motor is off?

It's inherent in the design of the jack. Think of the jack you use on your car to change a tire, or a floor jack, or the jack on the front of a boat trailer or RV. You turn the handle to raise/lower it, but you don't have to hold the handle in place to keep it from going back down - the jack is neutral when at rest, i.e. it remains in the last position you set it at.

At any rate, based on the power numbers kcress posted earlier in the thread, I'd be willing to bet that a bicycle chain undergoes more stress sprinting one block then his chains will see in a year!
 
kcress,

Apart from all of the engineering questions I have, one stands out more than the others:

"Why in the heck do you have 4000 lbs of Clay laying around???"

And a forklift, and a shop....?

Otherwise it looks great, but you are still crazy :-0

Stu
 
Very good.

Now tell us how you plan on working out the plumbing movement. :D


Shudder.. A picture is worth about 1 billion words when it comes to plumbing. Hang in there.

I can tell you the original plan.. Of course, the sump is going to sit on the floor. The closed loop pump is supposed to sit on the floor. And flexible hose is supposed to be the key solution.
 
I have been following this along and love this build. But please pardon, my lack of engineering savy when I ask this again. I kinda asked this early on but, Isnt that chain bearing the entire load of the tank? That seems really risky to me. There are hundreds of points of failure. Being an avid cyclist, I know that chains break. While you may have stops (pegs) in the jacks when the tank reaches a destination point, there is little else protecting your tank while the chain is in motion. I have to think if the chain breaks high or low... even the slightest movement can spell disaster. Will you put a wood surface under the tank to protect the bottom from being hit from a chain should it snap? I dont want to sound negative, but I would hate to see such a remarkable build fail because of a chain.

Bean and DWZM explained it and I did respond earlier to your question. Honest!

The angles of the screw threads prevent the screw from being driven by the load. Where ever the screw stops being turned at(by the chain) - that is where the load will stay.

Think about it. These jacks are to hold up truck trailers. A human cranks the crank until it's where it wants it. Then they just walk away. The crank doesn't start whirrring aways lowering the trailer. :)
 
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