Join me for a strange one...
- Thread starter kcress
- Start date
kcress
New member
As you all recall the plan shifted from the large CL pumped system to a pumped surge system.
Let me back-up a bit. I live near the Monterey Bay Aquarium. They have two world special tanks. One is the original Inner Bay Tank which features live Giant Kelp many stories tall, swaying in a surge. The surge makes the kelp sway along with all the thousand fish. This makes for a very dynamic tank. Very nice.
Then they have the million gallon Outer Bay Tank whose biggest feature is the seamless gigantic window of something like 14" thick acrylic. It is fantastic. A Japanese company came and fuzed the many sheets together behind blocking tarps in full secrecy.
But for me? Hands down it was the surge tank near the back door. It was about 8 feet wide, 3 feet deep, and 8 feet tall - but run only up to about 5 feet of water. The astute viewer would notice the water level slowly descending. About 4 inches in 2 or so minutes. Let's see: 96x36x4/231= 60gals.
At the end of the time they'd open a 14" butterfly valve almost instantly dropping the stolen water from about 3 feet into the right side of the tank. There would be the classic rumble and an explosion when it hit. Of course the tank was churned into a giant white froth. I don't think it had fish as that would be too much for them. Anyway, first tank I always went for. Etched in my mind forever.
Recently I took a buddy down to show him.. Gone. Dang. They replaced it with a total ho-hum tide pool with surge that's pretty pointless in my view.
So how's this relate to my build?
I did extensive lab testing of my Carlson surges with identical heights to what I'd need in my tank. My lab is a 55 in the driveway and a pond pump. With this I was able to test many, many, renditions of Carlsons and Bournemans.
Here's one of the many test subjects I've done recently. It's a concentric Carlson. Seven gallons by 4 feet tall, 1-1/4" delivery:
Drill holes:
Power tap them:
Threaded hole:
Support Bolt installed:
Three of them:
Done on both ends to hold the center outlet pipe concentric and in position.
The players:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ihdg4n4f4lnle4h8eu1x.jpg[/img]
The center assembled in the outer using the 6 fiberglass bolts:
Down the barrel:
The tank assembled. It's a 4 foot length of PVC 12" diameter with the pipe cap drilled out to accept an 1-1/4" bulkhead. This is good for about 7 gallons. A tall 7 gallons.
Let me back-up a bit. I live near the Monterey Bay Aquarium. They have two world special tanks. One is the original Inner Bay Tank which features live Giant Kelp many stories tall, swaying in a surge. The surge makes the kelp sway along with all the thousand fish. This makes for a very dynamic tank. Very nice.
Then they have the million gallon Outer Bay Tank whose biggest feature is the seamless gigantic window of something like 14" thick acrylic. It is fantastic. A Japanese company came and fuzed the many sheets together behind blocking tarps in full secrecy.
But for me? Hands down it was the surge tank near the back door. It was about 8 feet wide, 3 feet deep, and 8 feet tall - but run only up to about 5 feet of water. The astute viewer would notice the water level slowly descending. About 4 inches in 2 or so minutes. Let's see: 96x36x4/231= 60gals.
At the end of the time they'd open a 14" butterfly valve almost instantly dropping the stolen water from about 3 feet into the right side of the tank. There would be the classic rumble and an explosion when it hit. Of course the tank was churned into a giant white froth. I don't think it had fish as that would be too much for them. Anyway, first tank I always went for. Etched in my mind forever.
Recently I took a buddy down to show him.. Gone. Dang. They replaced it with a total ho-hum tide pool with surge that's pretty pointless in my view.
So how's this relate to my build?
I did extensive lab testing of my Carlson surges with identical heights to what I'd need in my tank. My lab is a 55 in the driveway and a pond pump. With this I was able to test many, many, renditions of Carlsons and Bournemans.
Here's one of the many test subjects I've done recently. It's a concentric Carlson. Seven gallons by 4 feet tall, 1-1/4" delivery:
Drill holes:
Power tap them:
Threaded hole:
Support Bolt installed:
Three of them:
Done on both ends to hold the center outlet pipe concentric and in position.
The players:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ihdg4n4f4lnle4h8eu1x.jpg[/img]
The center assembled in the outer using the 6 fiberglass bolts:
Down the barrel:
The tank assembled. It's a 4 foot length of PVC 12" diameter with the pipe cap drilled out to accept an 1-1/4" bulkhead. This is good for about 7 gallons. A tall 7 gallons.
kcress
New member
The fully assembled surge tower:
Setup on the lab tank:
Well.. This surge engine worked flawlessly! It churned the 55 up into a maelstrom.
I didn't accept it because it generated a surge that lasted about 18 seconds. I couldn't square that with any natural result in a small isolated coral pool. About here I began realizing that a fixed period, which is all a Carlson can provide, is not going to fly in this creation.
Needing a shorter 1~2 second surges:
I had to look at and try to judge the surge result for my tank while looking at my 55. I eventually decided that 1" Carsons dropping 30" churned my 55 relentlessly. For a grand effect I also built one in 1-1/4". I bought select trash cans that were tall and skinny and punched out the bottoms. I planned to build four units. Two 1" and two 1-1/4". I built a crazy support board/system that had to work around the future sun beams. I had to plump 4 channels of fill lines up to the four surge towers. I installed one of each, loaded up my tank with 280 gallons, then raised the tank up to viewing height where the surge discharges were built.
Game time! I turned on the much tested 1" unit and..... !!?? :sad2: It was like spitting into the Mississippi. It stirred up about a five gallon pail volume. Dang.
So I valved off the 1" and valved on the 1-1/4". Within a second it was raining all over the top of the tank from above!! Valve OFF! Turned out the bulkhead flange was jammed against a trashcan web. Teach me to test these things before installing.
Fixed and reinstalled. Valve ON.. No rain. Here comes the surge.. it's starting.. and starting and here we go!! pfffffft.
The larger the surge the longer it takes to start flowing, increase flow, and to go closed channel. My 3 gallon trash can is 80% consumed just establishing the closed channel. So what resulted was one little 3/4 second full flow proceeded by 3 seconds of transistion. The end result was about the same as the 1" which was 'full channel' in about 3 seconds for another 5.
Back to the Lab.
I want the viewing of these surges to be unrecognizable as being from a human contraption.
This means:
1) No fixed period between cycles.
2) No fixed volume.
3) No identifiable mechanical sounds.
4) No directional jet of water.
5) No slow buildup of flow.
6) No gurgling.
7) No start-up bubbles that appear in the stream.
8) No valve sounds.
Anyway. After all these weeks of further machinations, I've decided that nothing less than the M.B.A. 'Tank by the Door' will do.
After more lab work I decided on 10 gallons dumped into my tank, free falling 30", will be just about perfect. Studies show it needs to be 12 square inches of valve to get it dumped in less than 1.5 seconds. That's a 4" ball valve, or a 6" butterfly valve, or.... four toilet flapper valves.
The issue with the ball valve is that it's made for a couple of hundred PSI. That makes them very tight and hard, (read expensive), to turn.
The issue with the butterfly is that while it takes a lot less to turn one, they have such a lousy CV (restriction by the open plate), that you have to step up to the next size. Once you do that you are talking about a harder valve to turn again.
The toilet valves.
Pluses: Cheap. Easy to repair and rebuild. Have built in overflow protection.
Negatives: Can cause huge water hammer if the valve shuts under much flow. They have to float shut in calm flow to seal their seat correctly. They can take a lot of pull to be opened under a high head.
Toilet valves are easy to procure so I picked up four. I got a 10g tall trash can and mounted the four valves in the bottom with all their pull flags pointed at each other. I made a loop in a string and hooked all the pull chain hooks into it. I set it up in the Lab Tank at the proper height and let'r rip. WOW! Ten gallons - 1.5 seconds. It looks like the bottom drops out of the can.
The valves can be pulled in different numbers for moderated waves. They can be pulled pre-full for moderated wave impacts.
Flapper valves can slap shut with a loud noise that will also damage the valve rather soon. This can be greatly reduced if there is no pipe actually attached to them. The only hammer effect can come from the water above them then. If you make sure that water is gone first, then it can't cause a hammer.
Interesting aside: In this setup the flappers do not float in for a landing. They drop like a wet mop. It seems the air bubble normally trapped in the little cone is sucked out in the big flush. If you drop the pull string the flappers close instantly. Big flow, high water, it doesn't matter.
The problem with a 'mop shut' instead of a 'float shut' is that the valve doesn't self center. This means the valves leak, sometimes badly enough that the tank cannot fill. Using one string to pull them all to the side probably is not helping. Since I want to pull them all independently I should be able to lick that issue.
At this point I need to build, out of acrylic, a chute to deliver this load to the right end of the tank while not obscuring much area where the Solar Beam will be coming down to light the right side.
The Chute will need to admit a ton of air so the chute cannot become a closed pipe or water hammer could occur. The chute needs to provide a seal with the surge tank.
I'm waiting for my acrylic to come in. Meanwhile I need to design and CAD the chute. Then I can CAM and route the strange shaped bugger and assemble it.
I also need to come up with my four firing mechanisms.
Belay that!
After a day pondering the entire project, I don't want to spend the creative time making these 'independent pullers'. Especially since this whole thing is completely inaccessible once it's installed. (A major issue with this build.) Any flapper issues would be torture to deal with, requiring dismounting and removal of everything. Just a single missed landing of a flapper could require a whole dismantle in this case.
I'd rather spend my creative budget on the ATS and most especially the dual heliostats I want to develop.
So. I just ordered a 6" Hayward butterfly valve. It will be accessible below (not in), surge tank. It will allow all the variation I can create in software for the surges. Opening on an empty surge tank won't result in mis-seated flappers, etc. Now I need to come up with an electric actuator for it. (90 degrees in 1/4 second)
Setup on the lab tank:
Well.. This surge engine worked flawlessly! It churned the 55 up into a maelstrom.
I didn't accept it because it generated a surge that lasted about 18 seconds. I couldn't square that with any natural result in a small isolated coral pool. About here I began realizing that a fixed period, which is all a Carlson can provide, is not going to fly in this creation.
Needing a shorter 1~2 second surges:
I had to look at and try to judge the surge result for my tank while looking at my 55. I eventually decided that 1" Carsons dropping 30" churned my 55 relentlessly. For a grand effect I also built one in 1-1/4". I bought select trash cans that were tall and skinny and punched out the bottoms. I planned to build four units. Two 1" and two 1-1/4". I built a crazy support board/system that had to work around the future sun beams. I had to plump 4 channels of fill lines up to the four surge towers. I installed one of each, loaded up my tank with 280 gallons, then raised the tank up to viewing height where the surge discharges were built.
Game time! I turned on the much tested 1" unit and..... !!?? :sad2: It was like spitting into the Mississippi. It stirred up about a five gallon pail volume. Dang.
So I valved off the 1" and valved on the 1-1/4". Within a second it was raining all over the top of the tank from above!! Valve OFF! Turned out the bulkhead flange was jammed against a trashcan web. Teach me to test these things before installing.
Fixed and reinstalled. Valve ON.. No rain. Here comes the surge.. it's starting.. and starting and here we go!! pfffffft.
The larger the surge the longer it takes to start flowing, increase flow, and to go closed channel. My 3 gallon trash can is 80% consumed just establishing the closed channel. So what resulted was one little 3/4 second full flow proceeded by 3 seconds of transistion. The end result was about the same as the 1" which was 'full channel' in about 3 seconds for another 5.
Back to the Lab.
I want the viewing of these surges to be unrecognizable as being from a human contraption.
This means:
1) No fixed period between cycles.
2) No fixed volume.
3) No identifiable mechanical sounds.
4) No directional jet of water.
5) No slow buildup of flow.
6) No gurgling.
7) No start-up bubbles that appear in the stream.
8) No valve sounds.
Anyway. After all these weeks of further machinations, I've decided that nothing less than the M.B.A. 'Tank by the Door' will do.
After more lab work I decided on 10 gallons dumped into my tank, free falling 30", will be just about perfect. Studies show it needs to be 12 square inches of valve to get it dumped in less than 1.5 seconds. That's a 4" ball valve, or a 6" butterfly valve, or.... four toilet flapper valves.
The issue with the ball valve is that it's made for a couple of hundred PSI. That makes them very tight and hard, (read expensive), to turn.
The issue with the butterfly is that while it takes a lot less to turn one, they have such a lousy CV (restriction by the open plate), that you have to step up to the next size. Once you do that you are talking about a harder valve to turn again.
The toilet valves.
Pluses: Cheap. Easy to repair and rebuild. Have built in overflow protection.
Negatives: Can cause huge water hammer if the valve shuts under much flow. They have to float shut in calm flow to seal their seat correctly. They can take a lot of pull to be opened under a high head.
Toilet valves are easy to procure so I picked up four. I got a 10g tall trash can and mounted the four valves in the bottom with all their pull flags pointed at each other. I made a loop in a string and hooked all the pull chain hooks into it. I set it up in the Lab Tank at the proper height and let'r rip. WOW! Ten gallons - 1.5 seconds. It looks like the bottom drops out of the can.
The valves can be pulled in different numbers for moderated waves. They can be pulled pre-full for moderated wave impacts.
Flapper valves can slap shut with a loud noise that will also damage the valve rather soon. This can be greatly reduced if there is no pipe actually attached to them. The only hammer effect can come from the water above them then. If you make sure that water is gone first, then it can't cause a hammer.
Interesting aside: In this setup the flappers do not float in for a landing. They drop like a wet mop. It seems the air bubble normally trapped in the little cone is sucked out in the big flush. If you drop the pull string the flappers close instantly. Big flow, high water, it doesn't matter.
The problem with a 'mop shut' instead of a 'float shut' is that the valve doesn't self center. This means the valves leak, sometimes badly enough that the tank cannot fill. Using one string to pull them all to the side probably is not helping. Since I want to pull them all independently I should be able to lick that issue.
At this point I need to build, out of acrylic, a chute to deliver this load to the right end of the tank while not obscuring much area where the Solar Beam will be coming down to light the right side.
The Chute will need to admit a ton of air so the chute cannot become a closed pipe or water hammer could occur. The chute needs to provide a seal with the surge tank.
I'm waiting for my acrylic to come in. Meanwhile I need to design and CAD the chute. Then I can CAM and route the strange shaped bugger and assemble it.
I also need to come up with my four firing mechanisms.
Belay that!
After a day pondering the entire project, I don't want to spend the creative time making these 'independent pullers'. Especially since this whole thing is completely inaccessible once it's installed. (A major issue with this build.) Any flapper issues would be torture to deal with, requiring dismounting and removal of everything. Just a single missed landing of a flapper could require a whole dismantle in this case.
I'd rather spend my creative budget on the ATS and most especially the dual heliostats I want to develop.
So. I just ordered a 6" Hayward butterfly valve. It will be accessible below (not in), surge tank. It will allow all the variation I can create in software for the surges. Opening on an empty surge tank won't result in mis-seated flappers, etc. Now I need to come up with an electric actuator for it. (90 degrees in 1/4 second)
That's a pretty good idea with the douglas valves. I was thinking, maybe you could mount arced rods like 1/16" diam. (curved to follow the opening radius)mounted on the base just outside the seat of the douglas valve and pierce them through the opposite sides of the flat edge of the flapper to use them as guides to center the flapper each time. To stop the mop effect, how about those float/bobber deals strung a couple inches above the flapper, or a foam float inserted inside the flapper?
As far as actuators for the butterfly valve, Jandy pool valve actuators would work, but probably too slow.
I know the actuators for some natural gas valves would be very fast, such as various "fire valves" (normally closed) meant to stop gas flow if the fire system in a restaurant trips. Also solenoid valves for standby generators or steam boilers ...You could possibly strip the actuator off one of these valves.
I take it that this stuff would be kinda hidden up in the chimney space with no overhead access for maintenance.... Unless you make an access panel up high... :hammer:
As far as actuators for the butterfly valve, Jandy pool valve actuators would work, but probably too slow.
I know the actuators for some natural gas valves would be very fast, such as various "fire valves" (normally closed) meant to stop gas flow if the fire system in a restaurant trips. Also solenoid valves for standby generators or steam boilers ...You could possibly strip the actuator off one of these valves.
I take it that this stuff would be kinda hidden up in the chimney space with no overhead access for maintenance.... Unless you make an access panel up high... :hammer:
kcress
New member
Yeah you have it. Up the chimney. So I need really reliable -tinker free- solutions. Normally I'd have gone with the herd-of-flapper-valves as 'fun' but there is nothing fun about having to contort one's self to even LOOK at the stuff, never mind reach it or mess with it. LOL
I am getting a lot of pressure to use an air actuator but they tend to be HUGE and where do I get air? I don't want to explain to the family that the air compressor that runs at 3AM is "for the surge". I actually have a 5HP compressor on a big tank out in the garden but it would shatter the quiet in the morning.
I am getting a lot of pressure to use an air actuator but they tend to be HUGE and where do I get air? I don't want to explain to the family that the air compressor that runs at 3AM is "for the surge".
I actually have a 5HP compressor on a big tank out in the garden but it would shatter the quiet in the morning.
kcress
New member
What kind of place do you work at?I'm seeing numbers like 800in-lbs for how hard it is to turn a butterfly valve. I simple can't believe this for one without 100PSI across it. That would require a large motor to turn it quickly. So I await delivery so I can measure it for myself.
tahiriqbal
Sialkot
loving it Keith, red somewhere that simple bucket surge systems work wonders with great success. You know I love the entire build of yours and look forward to see the rest.
Tahir
Tahir
kcress
New member
Thanks tahiriqbal!
There are so many good ways to get a surge if, IF, IF, you're willing to ignore all the various method's foibles. Things like; Unpredictability, noise, stalling, splashing, delivery profile, frequency, etc., etc. Dump buckets are really straight-forward but. They tend to make a lot of noise when they crash open against some mechanical stop. The other issue specifically for me is the huge constraint of space above my tank. If I made a dump bucket it would occlude the flue pretty badly and hence cast a big shadow into the tank.
There are so many good ways to get a surge if, IF, IF, you're willing to ignore all the various method's foibles. Things like; Unpredictability, noise, stalling, splashing, delivery profile, frequency, etc., etc. Dump buckets are really straight-forward but. They tend to make a lot of noise when they crash open against some mechanical stop. The other issue specifically for me is the huge constraint of space above my tank. If I made a dump bucket it would occlude the flue pretty badly and hence cast a big shadow into the tank.
tahiriqbal
Sialkot
I guess we all are tight with space lol.
Crypsis
yes
I was involved on a repair job in this tank. We removed the blue tile on the back wall that was being destroyed by tuna running into it and replaced it with blue plastic panels. It was a blast diving with all those big tuna.
<a href="http://s1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/calireefer/?action=view¤t=IMG_0943.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/calireefer/IMG_0943.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Two of the biggest skimmers I've ever seen.
<a href="http://s1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/calireefer/?action=view¤t=MerlinsPictures193.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/calireefer/MerlinsPictures193.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/calireefer/?action=view¤t=MerlinsPictures178-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/calireefer/MerlinsPictures178-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/calireefer/?action=view¤t=resized-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/calireefer/resized-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Two days of reading, but well worth it! :thumbsup:
Now I understand why you need the actuated ball valve. It's too bad the toilet flappers didn't work out though. I still might try to figure out a way to make these work on my system. Maybe I'll try and come up with a damper to keep the flappers from slamming shut and causing the hydraulic hammer you talked about. Also if you had two separate surge tanks they would fill and empty at different rates which would help keep your surge random, both in terms of flow rate and flush intervals.
Also I love the clay panels they already look awesome and once they're covered in live coral I think it will look spectacular.
canesfan44
New member
Opcn
Member
Quick thought. If you can fine tune your intervals some how you should aim for prime number relations. One can go every 5 second, another every 11, a different one every 17 and a final one every 23; that combination will repeat the same sequence every 6 days or so, long enough to be considered random. Of course you will not time them perfectly, but it's something to keep in mind.
Edit: 6 HOURS not 6 DAYS.
Edit: 6 HOURS not 6 DAYS.
Last edited:
Crypsis
yes
Maybe I worded that wrong. I meant that those two skimmers are the biggest I've ever seen.
We were told that the tuna go into a feeding frenzy and every once in a while one of these 500 lb tuna will slam into the wall at 35 mph.:headwally: Needless to say we always got out of the water during feeding time.
I'm not sure if they found a solution to this problem. We were just replacing the blue tile on the false wall with sheets of plastic. I was thinking that the false wall should be scraped and a redesigned flexible wall installed that offered enough give to help absorb the impact, to better protect the tuna.
Alright sorry to derail your thread Kcress. I would love to hear more about your actuated valve surge system. I might have to commission one if it turns out well. I'm using an om four way closed loop but I've been fighting a water hammer problem with that design and can't quite get it to stop. I'm thinking a surge system could replace my closed loop and save me a bit of power.
Last edited:
kcress
New member
Opcn; Are you referring to my aborted 4 surge system? I'm still interested in the prime number gambit. I like that. I need to come up with a PLC solution to generating random numbers in a period. Like a 10 minute period to simulate surf breaking.
Keep in mind this will actually be far more than a 'surge'.. :lmao: It will be a breaking wave. KurrrrASH! It's likely going to require me to run a bit lower water level in the tank.
I got my mitts on a bending bar torque wrench yesterday and ran some tests on the butterfly valve. The force required to turn the valve is highest as the butterfly seats closed into the gasket. I mounted the valve in a vice horizontally and closed the valve - mostly -. I then poured water on the fly. It dribbled around the seal. I then started applying torque to the shaft and at 9ft-lbs all dripping stopped. I repeated this 3 times with identical results. This means I need a gear motor that turns 60RPM and delivers at least 9ft-lbs x 12in/ft = 108in-lbs. Of course for assurance I need a little more so I'm hunting for a gear motor that can deliver at least 150in-lbs. That's a little hard to find, but I should be able to pull it off.
That's a gear motor with a motor that's about the size of a windshield wiper motor rather than the larger toy size motors. Because this motor will run for only periods like 1/2 a second I'll be able to seriously over-amp the motor with no harm to it. I will have to be cautious with the gear boxes because you can blow them if you put too much torque thru them.
I have the flanges designed and how they'll be bolted up with 4-1/2" bolts.
