Join me for a strange one...

If you do go with flex line, rather than a fixed return and sliding drain pipe, then be sure that it is something designed to flex over a long period. I don't see you getting many cycles on it, but better safe than sorry as some 'flexible' pipe is really only meant to be bent a few times to get it in place, and then stay there. Flexing it more than that leads to premature failure.

Personally I would go with the fixed pipe and sliding drain, at least to start with. If it proved too loud then I would attempt the flexible option.

I'm not really worried about flexing the flex. As you point out it won't be all that often. I am worried about working the rigid and the bulkheads the flex ultimately connects to.

With a sliding joint I'm a bit terrified about it ever jamming. Can you imagine a joint jam and then having nearly two tons lowered on it? It would be like a hand grenade. Which meant I should look at commercial sliders. I couldn't find anything.
 
Another question, why a VFD for the closed loop, just to control head pressure?

Yes. Ultimately I don't care much about head pressure I care about flow. 1/2hp would put me in the poorhouse and probably churn the tank into a maelstrom. I want to vary the flow at different times.

Originally I planned to pump out about 40 gallons and then have it return suddenly in a cyclic wave manner. This wouldn't even require a large expensive pump. I could use the return pump to pump up to the holding tank in the chase above. Then when the level in that tank is reached drop the full load back into the display. That was my original plan.

I've had a VFD closed loop on my present tank setup for 14 years but It was only for waves and ran intermittently.

Then stu just did a closed loop the same as mine for continuous operation the same basic way I had - but continuously running. This got me to reconsider and now I believe the noise can be managed. I also already have the pump I need to do it.

Next, looking at my used tank I started to get the creeps about cyclically filling and emptying it 100 times a day. I suspect it would fail on me. That will have to wait for a new overbuilt tank.

single phase motors don't really have the shock starts and stops like a 3 phase motor though. A simple electronic motor starter has built in O/L too.

I have never seen an electronic soft starter for a single phase motor. A soft start for a three phase motor would require a three phase supply which I don't have. Also if you price soft starters you will see that in smaller sizes they cost far more than a VFD. They cannot synthesize 3 phase from single phase either.

Do you have a PLC in mind already?
Have a look at the Idec SmartRelay. With the starter kit (cable and software) its about 200 bucks, and the expantion I/O unit is like 50. And its very simple to program, and you even get a little lcd screen for simple controls.
This is what I am using for my tank, use it in the field a lot for small controls too.

That is exactly what I'm thinking of using. I have used them many times before. The new version has double the memory too. I just wish they'd improve the manual to a point of functional. The new rev software rev'd the manual and clarified some things. Unfortunately, it un-clarified about as much as it clarified. Lousy, lousy, manual.

I also pulled one of the Square-D equivalent controllers out of a job recently. If I could find the software to program it, I'd use it. It probably has a superior manual.
 
I had to order my fittings so I decided to draw a quick sketch of the needed fittings.


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Of course even this careful layout isn't going to survive the battle..

.
 
Note in the picture the loops for handling the up/down of the two inch?

2ibh6f8iqs.png


This is the super flexy 2" EDPM hose offered at flexpvc.com. It should do nicely!
 
I know it may sound a dum question but what would happen if you have a power cut during uploading to downloading the tank from its display position or even God forbid if chain breaks? By the way I am really impressed with your work so far Kcress, makes you think how best you could utilize such lovely fireplaces....;)
 
I know it may sound a dum question but what would happen if you have a power cut during uploading to downloading the tank from its display position or even God forbid if chain breaks? By the way I am really impressed with your work so far Kcress, makes you think how best you could utilize such lovely fireplaces....;)

Hi Tahir.
Nothing happens if the power fails. The motive force stops - the stand stops.

If the primary drive chain snaps nothing happens - same as a power failure.

If only the left or right secondary chains break.. Really bad things could happen. One side would continue moving and the other would freeze. This would continue until something jams entirely or the tank slides off the low side... I won't be testing this.:p

The plan is to incorporate four micro switches, one at each leg. Since the top of the stand is not fixed to the legs as one side changes dimensions there would be a subtle distance change easily detectable by micro switches. The switches all get daisy-chained in series into the UP/DOWN logic signals controlling the VFD. If any switch opens the VFD shuts down.

I started to do this, (procured the switches), then decided to postpone it until I have a working tank. Some jobs may cause you to loose too much time, effort, and focus. That can result in a failed project because so little visible headway occurs that one loses initiative.

So far I think it's a great way to use a fireplace. Most are on the way to being outlawed by politicians anyway. If someone was happy to limit themselves to a 180g or other 24" tall tank, or settle on a sit-down view, they could dispense with all the moving stand hassles completely.

It gets the tank outdoors effectively and if I pulloff the sun usage aspect, it would drop the energy demands dramatically.
 
Are you gonna bother with buffing them out? Novus works wonders.

Yes - somehow. Are you offering?? :love1: :D I wish there was someone around I could hire to do it.. :rolleye1:

In flipping it over and working on the bottom and standing it up and bringing it in it has received two deep scratches across the front. Like fingernail devouring canyons. So I will need to do more than "polish".

Also for inside the depth requires someone to get into the tank. You cannot reach in to do any inside work.

I don't want to do any polishing until the MMLR is installed, as I can see a single slip adding new scratches.
 
wrong.. :fun2:
:d

Seriously though, this is going to be one of the most technically unique builds out there when it is done. Before long, you'll see someone with a tank hanging from a chain in the ceiling, and it'll be your fault. ;)
 
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:d

Seriously though, this is going to be one of the most technically unique builds out there when it is done. Before long, you'll see someone with a tank hanging from a chain in the ceiling, and it'll be your fault. ;)



Yeah! Just don't be under it..
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Here is what that diagram and about $250 translated into. You don't see the coils of 2" EDPM nor the spa-flex 1-1/2" and 1".

On the left the up-sized pump impeller, pump O-ring, and pump seal(white can). Center front are really slick latching pipe mounts. Right side front; piles of hose clamps. I made the mistake of thinking the hose clamps where sized for the pipe size.. They aren't so I ended up with several that were way too small because pipe's OD is always way larger than the pipe's stated diameter.

Back right is the Freebie Gorilla PVC glue.

It should also be noted that most of the threaded components in my drawing were shifted to slip. Threads equal leaks, glue = no leaks.
 
I have never seen an electronic soft starter for a single phase motor. A soft start for a three phase motor would require a three phase supply which I don't have. Also if you price soft starters you will see that in smaller sizes they cost far more than a VFD. They cannot synthesize 3 phase from single phase either.



That is exactly what I'm thinking of using. I have used them many times before. The new version has double the memory too. I just wish they'd improve the manual to a point of functional. The new rev software rev'd the manual and clarified some things. Unfortunately, it un-clarified about as much as it clarified. Lousy, lousy, manual.

I also pulled one of the Square-D equivalent controllers out of a job recently. If I could find the software to program it, I'd use it. It probably has a superior manual.

Good point on the cost, I always just put the order in and hope it shows up, lol.

The new manual sucks still, but the new software is great for the smart relay.
I was lucky enough to have a tech fly in and give 10 of us at the last company a 2 day seminar. Sucks I forgot most of it already.

The sq d software might be expensive, same with the cable to connect to your computer. I have no idea why they don't all use just usb.
The advantage the idec has is the programming is very logical and intuitive compared to most. And the free software and cheap cable doesn't hurt.
I have a nice Modicon I pulled out of a job with a nice 5" HMI screen even, but its 300 bucks for the software and 100 for the programming cable.
 
Thanks for explaining Kcress...Chances for the secondary chain to fail or break is minimal (I hope), so keep up with the good work and loving the whole concept ;) Looking forward to see the rest and the end product.
 
You know I lost my point in my discussion about that. Until I automate the safety, I will just watch everything the whole time the stand is in motion. That's needed just to watch how the hoses are behaving, etc., before there can be confidence in the operation, if you get my drift.
 
Looks like you already got your plumbing- but I was going to recommend you put the return line up the back wall, secure it to the well, & put it over the top all in hard line.

That way you can drop the tank & the return line will stay in place so it doesn't have to move at all. You just wouldn't be able to run the return pump while the tank was down.
 
Plumbing time!


Alright, as you know the intent on dealing with the cyclical changing stand height dimensions and the plumbing was - to use flexible hose.

The hose was to be generally bent into a 360 degree loop that would be free to change its radius as the tank rises or descends. Since I'd have several feet involved the individual tiny bits of hose would each only have to deform slightly over the entire cycle. Hence, the tensions involved would be small.

Why do we need small since we have serious large forces available? Because ultimately those forces will be resolved in the fittings at the most rigid locations. That's the bulkheads and pump ports. Neither are good spots for repetitive stress cycles.

Unfortunately.... One touch of the 2" hose and it was OBVIOUS that it was waaaaay too stiff.

The advertising sputum shows it tied in a small knot and states some incredibly small bending radius which faked me out totally. I didn't realize that to get it into that tight a radius you would need two trucks or a backhoe.

Sadly I bought many feet at over $13 a foot to make a large loop. To have small enough stresses with this stuff I'd have to have a 10 foot diameter loop which would cause problems with the shear weight of it all - not to mention no room for it.

The beast hose lurking in wait:

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Bring up Plan B - STAT!

Well, if the pump didn't move relative to the the stand then the flex issue would be mute. Plan B is to mount the BIG closed loop pump on the stand.


Since this eventuality was never even considered in the stand build, here's the only position I can work with.


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To actually hold the pump in space at a skew angle I need a platform. So I made one out of cardboard and had a friend hold it all up while checking things out. Once that was looking OK I cut a rough duplicate out of the bottom marine plywood from my aborted tank build.


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Notice how I have to avoid my gear reduction plate etc. A pain in the...



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This is the wood mock-up in place. You can see the suction bulkhead to the left and the discharge one on the right and where the pump mount will reside.


Once I had the mockup hacked the way I needed it I sat down and CADDed up a drawing with nice radiused corners that will prevent barked arms and faces in the event of any contact.

Then I fed the CAD drawing to my CNC router and threw another hack out of my aborted tank bottom on it.

This is the result.

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Once that was done I decided I didn't want just a piece of low tech plywood visually obvious under my stand. That would be like stripes and poke-a-dots on the same person... It dawned on me I could cover the top with acrylic and have a waterproof surface too. I had a chunk of black. I reset the CNC to cut only 1/4" and ran the same program over my black acrylic. I then painted the plywood cheery yellow to match my stand top extensions.

Here's the resulting setup.



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miss doing CNC work myself.....it's nice to be able to have that precision at your finger tips....this is looking great so far.....what if you made some 2" collared sleeves out of PVC for over the bulkheads to prevent bending/stress at that connection?
 
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