Karim's 1500gal dream reef

I know you've researched your glass for the sunroom thoroughly, did you look into dual-paned windows with Argon gas between the panes? I remember posts earlier comparing the UV/IR/and visible light but I don't recall dual paned with gas being in that comparison. My parents installed these types of windows on their home and it's decreased their electric bill considerably in the summer time. The house stays cool pretty well now
 
I've just been reading the posts from the past month. Wow, so much time spending crunching numbers. You do know there is porn on the internet?

I've been running my outdoor frag tanks for almost 14 years. I have been running a 2 story surge tank for about 12 years non-stop.

To be honest, I don't understand all the calculations regarding the vacuum surge system. But from a power consumption standpoint I can't believe that trying to "SUCK" water up is going to be more efficient than pumping the water up. While the vacuum in a bucket looks cool, what happens when that bucket is trying suck up 200 gallons of water? Is the the $100 vacuum really capable of holding that much weight up?

From an electrical consumption standpoint I would think a few Abyzz pumps filling your tanks and motorized ball valves would be much less electricity and a silent solution. All those vacuum pumps sucking isn't going to be a very relaxing sonnet to enjoy the tank or the summer evenings.

Moving on to the lighting comparisons of sun vs MH and par hours. Over the years many people have come and taken Par Readings on my out door tank. When you take a Par reading on your aquarium with your your halides, you have to have the meter aimed at the bulb. Your halides are suppyling a pinpoint spot of light. Even with the 'super neato' reflectors, the numbers of spots of light is minimal that contain your highly focused par.

When you have an outdoor aquarium, it's not the sun that's lighting your tank, its the sky. On an overcast day with the sun behind the clouds I get more PAR then a halide at 10" above a tank. But more importantly I get that PAR from every direction above.

My frag tanks are on the back of my house which faces east. And even with the sun behind the house for the latter half of the day, the amount of light the corals get is substantial.


Evaporative cooling works great for my system.

Your dark hiding chamber is an interesting concept. In my display tank the rock work is built on fibergrate stairs. So the left side of the tank the rock structure is only 1 rock layer deep. Underneath is the equivalent to a dark empty 140 gallon tank. All that dark hiding area is why I think I have been successful in keeping Golden Angels, Mutli-Bars, Venustus angels. To the point that the Golden Angels were spawning in captivity.

We also had a pair of Janss pipefish and Austrailian pipefish for over 5 years.

Sadly these successes were lost a few weeks ago due to an extended power outage. So please include in your complex design an auto start generator and transfer switch to make sure that when this dream comes to fruition and your marine life is thriving - a silly power outage doesn't stop your progress.

Dave B
 
Wow Dave! That sounds awesome. Sorry to hear about the outtage. Yes- I have a generator in the plans. The ATS is still a little too expensive but I've weathered three days of no power with my genny on manual.

As far as the vacuum, they're not actually holding up 200gallons of air. The atmosphere around us is. Think of it like this - the atmosphere is creating a massive amount of pressure on us = 15lbf per in2... we don't feel it because it's everywhere. The vacuum basically pulls air out of the surge containers slowly and that change in pressure is enough for the atmosphere to push the water up into it. I'm not lifting 200 gallons of water- all I have to do is remove 200 gallons of air & the atmosphere does the rest.

All vacuums are not created equal.. so to raise the water by 40", I need a pressure capable vacuum. It also slows down as it removes more and more air. That's why the vacuum section of the flow looks the way it does. I use actuated valves today so I know they work... but the intent is to remove pumps. It's not to save power- it's to avoid blending the squishier bits of life... or breaking the impellers with their hard shells..

Neptune%20PMUP%20Fail%2001.jpg


My way has no animals ever touched by machine

As far as noise- seems that plenty of people who use vacuums to keep their woodworking shops clean have the same problem. And those ingenious woodworkers have figured out for to wire suspend a vacuum in a box with sound absorbing foam and an exhaust muffler so you can cut out 40dB of noise!! God bless them!

The wall between the sunroom and pump room will have sound dampening too. :)

I also can't afford Abyzz pumps :) my Jebaos work fine in redundant mode.

Evaporative cooling works great where the climate is more dry. I don't know how Encinitas's compares to Dallas but I have my doubts :) on it working here. Still, good to have in my back pocket before going HVAC. How did it effect your humidity in the tank room?

So great to get confirmation that the sunlight works so well (skylight) and the dark zone also has successful precedence in your tank.

Maybe you can come visit when it gets underway!
 
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Here's Dave's video showing the tanks and documenting the loss - I've subscribed anyway.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Gv4xZk5MMVQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

9 mins in is the outdoor tank - gorgeous testament

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_w-aaZOWvis" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pHK6pLJGt3s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

and the chatty cathy walkthrough

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KndAuV4bNdA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TeNV72FL0T8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

and in the rain:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DtL-svcsuS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

We do get torrential downpours and tornados here... as well as ice storms and sleet and hail... so TX needs a sunroom.
 
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I have to say, you're much more adventurous with angels and butterflies in that tank... but maybe they helped keep the Xenia in check.
 
this is why you can run without a greenhouse:

https://weather.com/weather/monthly/l/91316:4:US

wow...

here's dallas:

https://weather.com/weather/monthly/l/Dallas+TX+USTX0327:1:US

your little gray line never goes below 19F (ever)... I end up running down to -2F ... ok, so that's the record, but the variability in TX is harsh comparatively.

do you ever get freezing rain or sleet or hail? what do you do when it gets there?

I actually did try running an outside salt water tank back in 2009 (I think?).. I remember that I had to pump 2KW (one full breaker) of heaters to keep it over 72F and then it hailed and there were chunks of ice... so I made a clear plastic tarp in the freezing rain.. and decided I need a greenhouse.
 
notice how quickly this inverted tank fills...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/I7N2gB7eQ04" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

and here's a much deeper one

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VXyyAcfm6yU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

he starts at 0:25 and it's full at 1:40 = 75 seconds. Looks to be ~ 5ft out the water?

I have to say that the glass looks awfully thin for a 5ft tall tank...
 
Congrats on the house out in Prosper! Thats only about half an hour from me lol

Best of luck with the house and all thats coming, the tank is gonna be completely ridiculous, especially because of all the pre-planning going into the design of the tank
 
Thanks MK. I will need help. Are you interested?

There's a barn raising, a sunroom raising and a tank raising... all paid for with food, beer and happy thoughts :)
 
All this effort to avoid the pumps I think is kind of silly. You can see that the frag tank just has racks in it and no racks. And the fish population out there is growing rapidly. With all those angels outside if you pickup up any of the 100's of frags outside the plugs are covered in pods. I don't mean you have to look, but they are falling off the plugs.

I am amazed by the pod population in that tank. There are 3 eggcrates in that tank. And there is a maturing Emperator angel, 2 regal angels, 2 goldflake angels, 1 navrachus angel and two golden angels. There is also a pair of dragon faced pipefish and a pair of mandarins. Not to mention 12+ damsels, 6 bangai and 9 tangs. And yet the pods are flourishing in that tank.

My main return pump is a Dart (gold). I have clown fish that have gone over the overflow in the main tank and end up in the outdoor tank - One perc clown made the trip 3x without being harmed. I also have a yellow coris that has moved from tank to tank via the dart multiple times without harm.

And last fall one of my wifes designer clowns not only went from the 400g display to the sump - thru the dart to the rock sump - thru a Vectra L1 to the frag tank -- And not a mark on the fish.

I know there is lots and lots of information to read up on. But sometimes look for the real world application and not scientific theory.

I read earlier in this thread where there was a paragraph about bubbles from surges damaging corals and collecting under the corals and damaging. I ran my Carlson surge device from 2003 till 2013. Bubbles blasting the tank for 10 hours a day. And the only damage was too my viewing enjoyment. And I created a bubble muffler that actually made the bubbles smaller.


I have been doing this a long time, my goal is too make my tank as self sufficient and low maintenance as possible. Currently I can walk away from my tank for almost 3 weeks - and if there are no disasters - everything is fine. My 3 week time limit is based on the size of dosing containers and the decay rate of Kalkwasser.

Dave B
 
Dave, I appreciate your experience. I have pods in droves in my pump driven tank now. I'm not going for pods.

Let me put it this way - when algae growers and harvesters are working on high efficiency energy production, they don't use pumps. They use paddles to move water as gently as possible.

When fish and shrimp farmers are growing fry, they use air bubbles.

Pumps have worked for decades - they don't harm what we keep. I want a system that avoids mechanical devices in the water completely to explore what we can't do today.
 
We have the same goal. I'm only limited by my kalk system too, by the way. I can usually go about the same period ~ a month.

I don't think bubbles kill corals. I actually have a dedicated air injector in my system.

But I want to maximize my water clarity and personally prefer clear water that is full of organic life particles to bubbles :D

I've been doing this since the 80s too ... and I realize my approach is unconventional. But we need to try new things to learn new things. Usually not what we thought we'd learn, but we still get somewhere new.

You did it with your outdoor tank. Probably with many neighsayers and doubters- but you persevered and showed everyone that it could be done and done well.

If the vacuum doesn't work, the system is perfectly adaptable to pumps or powerheads.. but the goal is no mechanicals and eventually no electricals in the water.
 
Dave - love your tank by the way and I'm going to spend time this weekend just getting through the vids :D

Here's mine today (halide 14k)

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/73E3DADD-FD29-4F8E-95EE-462DD30E4C5F_zpsu6hpfmy1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/73E3DADD-FD29-4F8E-95EE-462DD30E4C5F_zpsu6hpfmy1.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 73E3DADD-FD29-4F8E-95EE-462DD30E4C5F_zpsu6hpfmy1.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/A5F6AFA6-A298-4204-B175-67DC18020031_zps1ylmfpef.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/A5F6AFA6-A298-4204-B175-67DC18020031_zps1ylmfpef.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo A5F6AFA6-A298-4204-B175-67DC18020031_zps1ylmfpef.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/76969667-D60E-49BC-A89A-B17D3D64ACE4_zps3rgxaypz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/76969667-D60E-49BC-A89A-B17D3D64ACE4_zps3rgxaypz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 76969667-D60E-49BC-A89A-B17D3D64ACE4_zps3rgxaypz.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/C604D115-0A33-4AAA-AE3E-0986279B9747_zpszhvwryb8.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/C604D115-0A33-4AAA-AE3E-0986279B9747_zpszhvwryb8.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo C604D115-0A33-4AAA-AE3E-0986279B9747_zpszhvwryb8.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/888E4E2E-E921-4836-ADE5-0A80CE22D335_zpsnk2fduzu.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/888E4E2E-E921-4836-ADE5-0A80CE22D335_zpsnk2fduzu.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 888E4E2E-E921-4836-ADE5-0A80CE22D335_zpsnk2fduzu.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/2A44D0AF-7802-4E37-844F-2FC1E801A592_zpssjqfhgnf.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/2A44D0AF-7802-4E37-844F-2FC1E801A592_zpssjqfhgnf.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2A44D0AF-7802-4E37-844F-2FC1E801A592_zpssjqfhgnf.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/C0C8CB20-9E1A-490D-99E5-A9A337834BDF_zpsegyqycjg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/C0C8CB20-9E1A-490D-99E5-A9A337834BDF_zpsegyqycjg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo C0C8CB20-9E1A-490D-99E5-A9A337834BDF_zpsegyqycjg.jpg"></a>

So I'm quite aware of how successful the existing techniques can be

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2545088&page=9
 
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Probably good to reset the purpose of the "surge" containers and vacuum method.

A few months months ago, the circulating flow in the tank was achieved by separating the tank into four channels of flow with one big common volume in the back. There were four arrays of powerheads connecting the channels to the back volume. The intent was to activate the powerheads to create flow in some channels and accept the reverse flow through the inactive channels. That creates a circulating loop of flow.

Fast forward to the implementation phase and I realize that the cost of the 48 powerheads wasn't trivial. Neither was the power consumption to achieve the 4in/s targeted linear flow. The straw that broke the camel's back was the wiring and maintenance. The incursion of life would require regular maintenance of the powerheads and creating access mechanisms became a nightmare with 48 pumps with 48 wires - each connected to a power driver synchronized by an arduino. All possible - but wow the complexity.

I was undeterred until I started looking at the surge section (separate from the circulating flow) and the desire to create a separate grazing ground for turf to grow in sunlight. Here's how the thought evolved:

1. I need to create a scrubber that is only accessible to fish when I choose to. I also need to be able to get them out when I want to. I have no more tank space, but I saw the inverted tanks and though that an inverted tank made the ideal controllable grazing ground. So I went vertical up the wall where the sun was shining but nothing was using it.

2. To automatically fill and flush the grazing scrubber (to allow fish or expel them), I needed an automated vacuum and seals to hold or purge air pressure. So, the grazing grounds became a defacto surge.

3. But my problem with surges is the burden then create on the overflow with siphons and vortices, etc... this is what my wife calls the "toilet flushing" events. So I came up with the idea of separating the vertical tank into two tanks 4' wide each. The idea is that if one is full and the other side is empty, I can connect the top air pockets and create a circulating flow (not a surge) that sucks water up one and pushes water down the other. That was it... flow without flushing!!! The idea of connecting the air pockets worked (video on YouTube) but was slow compared to the surge.

4. I needed to figure out what the formulae were that controlled the rate of flow as a function of design variables... math math math... got it and yes! I can make it work.

5. So now I had a circulating flow scrubber surge (could circulate or surge)!! And the best part is that it requires no pumps in the water. No wires in the water. No maintenance of equipment in the water. The fish can swim up to graze and I can slowly lower the level so they stop. I can run it as a waterfall or updraft scrubber too when it's air filled or water filled.

6. Turn my attention back to my circulating flow powerheads.. they're now unnecessarily complicated. Their only advantage was that they were an array that allowed me to create a slug of flow down the channels that wasn't a circular pump output. So, I replaced them with an array of PVC pipe and now I get the same effect from two vacuums over four tanks.

The tanks cost $350 each. The vacuums $150 each. The valves cost $15 each x 10 = $150 per channel. I actuate the air valves instead of the water so I need 4 actuators per tank at $50 each ~ $200.. $850 per channel with only four vacuums and 16 valves to control. Compare that to 48 DC powerheads ($1000 per channel before the controls).

So easier, cheaper.. but the flow was still not as much as I'd like.

7. I realized that as I vacuum the air out of one container, I can inject it into another!! The vacuum's blower output was able to pressurize the second tank. That means that the pipes weren't just pumping water out (like a surge), they were drawing water in. Unlike a "pump fill", a vacuum fill sucks water to create a counter flow back up. Likewise, the tank rebalancing also sucks water back up. This exceeded what the one way powerheads and pumps could do... true reversible flow!

And that's where we have the current design. :D
 
I want to let you know, if it seems like I am mocking all the detailed research and hypothecating, I do it with a smile on my face.

On the other end of the keyboard is a fat bald guy in a bright Hawaiian shirt. I have a good sense of humor but it's quite sarcastic.

So if it seems like I am just dropping bombs on your ideas, please don't see it as me trying to be an evil *****.

I love seeing people come up with new ideas that makes our aquariums healthier and our live stock live longer happier lives.

Having been a tinkerer and gadget guy my whole life a good majority of my system is all self designed and built by me.

I've been building custom aquarium systems since 1989. From simple 180's up to commercial coral prop farms here in the states, to even Government run coral farms in Asia.

While this means I have seen lots of things, it means i have also seen lots of failures (many my own). In my experience all the notes and numbers don't necessarily work when you build the actual thing.

I congratulate you on your design models for proof of concept.

I am happy to help you with any of the experience or knowledge i have. I'm happy to give you my number to talk if you like. But I'm telling you now I'm going to laugh if you start citing all those numbers and statistics :)

Dave B
 
If this is a hobby, what about spending time with the family? Just curious how you all are juggling your time around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Dannyfish, When i first started dating my wife I took her to a wholesale and told her to pick what ever fish she wanted for the tank. She picked an Achilles tang.

When it was time to get married, it was my wife's idea to get married at the Aquarium of the Pacific.

Now she's a full fledged Reef Groupie. She goes to the shows, she booked Macna, she doesn't mind people stopping by at least 2-3 days a week to pick up corals and talk fish.

And she is 100% supportive of us upgrading and adding more tanks in the house.

If you are a true reef addict, before you propose you gotta turn the woman upside down and look for webbed feet and gills behind the ears.

Dave B
 
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