Karim's 1500gal dream reef

[karimwassef]

So why the interest in the dark zone?

The eggcrate will only allow small fish to get in and out of this zone. So this will really be an inverterbrate and sponge zone. I expect this to become a breeding zone for shrimp, crab, etc...

The difficulty is that this zone will not be accessible once the reef is set up. It can be flushed with water, but physical access will be limited.

I don't plan any structures in this space - no rockwork or artificial structures like eggcrate, etc... (for now).

There will be no sand intentionally in this zone, but I'm sure there will be some buildup. I'm considering bottom bulkheads to allow flushing this zone if needed. I might even use this as a the water change source.

 

[JonezNReef]

Wow this is well thought out! I can't wait to see this one happen

 

[karimwassef]

This one will be in the design phase for a while. I'll run some small scale experiments but I not in a rush to spend the $$$ yet.

Measure three times, cut once.

 

[karimwassef]

ok. here's the filtration / external loop. This includes a sump, but only as a mechanical control interface to the surge/refugium. It really doesn't serve any other function - no media.

I would like to convert this to a settling tank, but that's not planned out yet.

here's the front view:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/0_zpswutd1mot.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/0_zpswutd1mot.png" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpswutd1mot.png"/></a>

and the back view:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/1_zps3quorej2.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/1_zps3quorej2.png" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zps3quorej2.png"/></a>

Basically, there are four drain lines. The two ordinary drains operate like a conventional beananimal with one fully open and the second tuned to minimize bubbles under normal flow. The red line is the emergency drain. The difference here is a fourth drain line that has an actuated valve on it. This is timed to align with the surge events to try to control the bubbles.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/2_zpsl5tzxpnu.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/2_zpsl5tzxpnu.png" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpsl5tzxpnu.png"/></a>

I employ baffles and a floating screen to reduce bubbles again. Then the pump stage. This has multiple pumps that push water up to the surge with minor taps to external loops.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/3_zpsnan1ttik.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/3_zpsnan1ttik.png" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsnan1ttik.png"/></a>

The pumps push water up using individual lines to get to an acceptable flow rate of 8-10K gph. There's no need for a siphon block because the pump outlets point up and all 5 are in a dedicated chamber.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/7_zpsrusfqkry.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/7_zpsrusfqkry.png" border="0" alt=" photo 7_zpsrusfqkry.png"/></a>

The outlet chamber floods into the refugium chamber and then a baffle to the surge chambers. Each has multiple actuated lines down to the tank and one has an emergency overflow to the surge.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/4_zpsxd0vz3qc.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/4_zpsxd0vz3qc.png" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsxd0vz3qc.png"/></a>

The pink are surge and the green are returns. Since they're all actuated, they can be repurposed to act as surges or controlled flow returns.

The external lines lead out to the outside of the house - to the chiller, ATS and mangrove garden.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/5_zpspafrvr25.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/5_zpspafrvr25.png" border="0" alt=" photo 5_zpspafrvr25.png"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Designs/6_zpszxnljtr4.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Designs/6_zpszxnljtr4.png" border="0" alt=" photo 6_zpszxnljtr4.png"/></a>

 

[saf1]

How fast is that surge going to be?

Wouldn't that put a lot of force / pressure on some of the tank walls?

 

[karimwassef]

The surge will be comparable to what I have in my current tank ~ 20 gal over 5 seconds per surge per event.

If multiple surges go off at the same time, it would be 80-100 gal / 5 seconds. This is a bit of a compromise in tank overhead and overflow capacity.

It really doesn't exert that much force on tank walls in my experience. The force is buffered by the size of the tank.

In my current setup, the surge is directed down the long path ~ 8 ft. By the time it reaches the far wall, it's already looped multiple times and created multi-flows.

 

[karimwassef]

So I'll start the self-criticism...

I have multiple flows into the tank - 4 controlled, 2 surge and two more lines I haven't shared yet. That's 8 inlets at 2" diameter each. The total will average about 10K gph or so. The surges will add bursts of flow of 20-100 gal over 5 seconds.

How are 3 drains at 2" diameter going to manage that?? It's really 2 drains with one more dedicated for surge, but wouldn't that put the emergency overflow into constant use???

 

[karimwassef]

Rebuttal - the drains should be able to run in full siphon mode and 2" at 4ft should be able to pull 4K gph. Two of them can handle 8K and the last one can handle the surge allowing for a few inches of tank height to absorb the inrush.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Well here's hoping your ability to find the house that you want & built everything is just as good as your ability to make sketch drawings of what you want As this is something I hope I'm still alive to see happen

 

[karimwassef]

Criticism - but each of the 4 total drains have 6 or 8 ft of horizontal run. That would trap air bubbles and stop a full siphon from forming!

Rebuttal - but before the horizontal runs, they have a drop of 3ft. That should be able to form a solid siphon with enough pressure to blast out a large air bubble.

Criticism - I think you need to work out the pressure drops in those angles to be sure. Also should add more drains to be safe.

Rebuttal - There's no room for more drains. The circulation powerheads in the flowtank structure take up a lot of room and create an obstruction for more drains.

Criticism - Look man! I'm just trying to help you out here...

Ok - I'm not schizophrenic. I'm just thinking out loud to work out the bugs.

 

[karimwassef]

Well here's hoping your ability to find the house that you want & built everything is just as good as your ability to make sketch drawings of what you want As this is something I hope I'm still alive to see happen

SF is only 4 hours away - I'm going to need help

 

[sfsuphysics]

Well part of me says as long as you pay for round trip airfare... but then the sensible side of me says I grew up in this region, I'm acclimated to this weather which means I'm pretty much going to be a pansy if I go anywhere "out of season" which is most of the country during certain times of the year. I'm pretty sure Texas will only have a small window to where I'm comfortable doing anything (and unfortunately I'll probably be teaching during that window)

Besides I have been marveling at the engineering of our forefathers who used 2x4s to make a raised floor over a span of 12 feet (no wonder there's so much bounce to it) now let me put 350g of aquarium on it (translation: I'm busy with construction work for my own tank...)

 

[karimwassef]

ok - I'll settle for vetting out any bad ideas that might break the design.

with the goal of getting to something better and more robust, of course.

 

[Comfyf]

Loved the solar refugium plan....subscribed


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[karimwassef]

Thanks. I think there will be other needs to run wires and pipes to the outside so I'm thinking of having a rectangular channel 4" x 24" created under or in the concrete slab to allow for some flexibility. The problem is that I may need it to exit on two different sides of the sunroom... For example, I want the chiller in a cool shadowed spot but the greenhouse in a sunny spot.

I also don't know the conventional building tools to avoid this channel from getting flooded or filled with dirt (or critters - this is TX). Angled ends? Caps? My plan was to fill it with foam on all openings and then break up the foam and reapply if changes are needed.

Every device would need a return too, but in this case, the mangroves and ATS share a return.

Given the distance, this may need more to avoid a flood in case one return is clogged since it is open (unlike the chiller). Does it also need a booster pump?

This part needs more thought but it's important.

 

[Chibils]

Karim - I wanted to say this may be the most ambitious build on RC. Not necessarily in terms of size, but in sheer scope and thought and creativity.

I would ask you to reconsider adding sand, rock, etc. to the "dark zone". I know you're a big fan of mimicking nature in your builds, and I think substrate and rock are necessary "media" for some of the life in a cryptic zone. My old tank had way too high nutrients and way too much food and I'm not proud of that but in the cryptic zones in the back of the tank under rocks where there was no light and plenty of mulm the sand and rocks were alive with worms and tunicates and sponges and dusters and such. It looked like a real reef cryptic zone and it was almost as cool as the reef parts.

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[karimwassef]

Thanks Chibils. I'm still considering it.

The poor access concerns me and I think that adding media would increase the chances of something going wrong.

That said, these dark zones aren't exactly cryptic zones in that the flow through them will be quite large at times. In fact, this hidden reef will experience as much flow as the bright reef and will experience the same level of feeding and nutrients. The only difference is the lack of large predators (due to the eggcrate barriers) and the complete darkness.

So, I expect this to be an ideal zone for sponges and invertebrates that depend on
high flow and plentiful food sources.

If I do add media, it would be flattened rocks oriented to allow water to flow around them so that the current flow is not significantly impeded.

During "storm events", these regions will be blasted with very high flow (20K gph+) to clear out debris and force it up and out. Even under quiescent flow, the powerheads will never be completely off to avoid fouling. In my current system, my powerheads' dark internal sections get gummed up by sponges and tunicates because I occasionally turn them off.

I do see value in a true cryptic zone but I'll have to rethink a portion of my surge refugium to serve this function or dedicate a separate stage to it.

 

[biecacka]

I understand you will use eggcrate to prevent larger fish from the cryptic zone, but how do you plan on making it dark?

Corey

 

[maxxII]

Thanks Chibils. I'm still considering it.

The poor access concerns me and I think that adding media would increase the chances of something going wrong.

That said, these dark zones aren't exactly cryptic zones in that the flow through them will be quite large at times. In fact, this hidden reef will experience as much flow as the bright reef and will experience the same level of feeding and nutrients. The only difference is the lack of large predators (due to the eggcrate barriers) and the complete darkness.

So, I expect this to be an ideal zone for sponges and invertebrates that depend on
high flow and plentiful food sources.

If I do add media, it would be flattened rocks oriented to allow water to flow around them so that the current flow is not significantly impeded.

During "storm events", these regions will be blasted with very high flow (20K gph+) to clear out debris and force it up and out. Even under quiescent flow, the powerheads will never be completely off to avoid fouling. In my current system, my powerheads' dark internal sections get gummed up by sponges and tunicates because I occasionally turn them off.

I do see value in a true cryptic zone but I'll have to rethink a portion of my surge refugium to serve this function or dedicate a separate stage to it.

The poor access is the biggest problem here. This is a very ambitious design, and you obviously know what you're doing, but I've learned over the years that not being able to access something is a recipe for disaster.

I dont know how you could make that more accessible, but try to figure out a way, even if it just ensuring the eggcrate barriers are not permanent.

 

[karimwassef]

I understand you will use eggcrate to prevent larger fish from the cryptic zone, but how do you plan on making it dark?

Corey

It's inherently dark. It's under the reef so above it is the glass ceiling/reef floor covered in 3"-4" of sand and rocks. On the sides is the plywood doors that will be shut. The far back goes against the flow tanks and the far front opens up to the deep reef, so some light may penetrate a foot or so.