Keeping fish in pairs and groups

I have been telling people for years that fish should always be kept in breeding condition and when they are in that condition they will be either cleaning a place for a nest, chasing away same sex fish or looking for a mate. These of course will be small gobies, bleenies and damsels. Unfortunately, when most reef fish are full grown they are too large for an average aquarium and are always in a state of stress. Most fish that are free swimming are schooling fish and are never seen alone on a reef. They are also never found in two feet of water where they must turn around every four or five feet. If you follow free swimming fish on a reef (you have to be a good swimmer) they swim in wide circles or a hundred years or so picking at the coral as they go. When something scares them they all turn at once. We can not of course reproduce this in a tank but we can induce the smaller fish to spawn which they do all the time with no help from us other than to supply a good diet and as little stress as possable to an animal that is living in concentration camp conditions. Anyway, I recently returned from a diving trip to Tahiti and followed a lot of moorish Idols. I only saw them in pairs, never alone and only once I saw three of them but I think the pair was trying to lose the intruder. These swim fast and keep circling the reef in huge arcs.
Paul
13094morish_idols_tahiti-med.jpg
 
awesome pics, paul...i love moorish idols...which is why i probably would't attempt to keep one. Where are you from on the Island? i grew up in East Islip.

so i imagine the best bet with the flame angels would be to get two at once as small as i can find? is there an ideal size, 1, 2, 3 inches?

do you guys think my GSM would be less aggressive if i gave her a male to beat up? or would she be more aggressive in breeding mode?

donnie
 
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overflowing that GSM would be even more aggresssive to your fish they would have to learn where they can and cant go around that maroon. I think in a 72 gallon if she set up shop in one corner then u might be okay but if she hosts something in the center you ar hooped. Moorish Idols can easily be kept in todays tanks. As long as you find a healthy one right off the bat and have enough LR for it to graze on. The trick is to find a healthy one that is eating prepared food though.
 
its not a matter of keep a moorish idol alive...its keeping it happy. i just don't think one should be kept in a 75...or even some larger tanks. the maroon has claimed the whole right half of the aquarium...tolerates the gramma but is always posturing with the a. guttata that set up shop on the sand nearby. the wrasse is too fast to care about the clown...unfortuately his buddy wasn't...

i really hope i can get that clown out without removing any rock...

donnie
 
Donnie, I am from New Hyde Park Long Island. As for Moorish Idols, they are one of my favorite fish. One of the reasons I went to Tahiti was to dive with them. As I said they swim in pairs. I also saw a lot of long nosed butterflies which were also in pairs in the same places that the Idols hang out. Of course most tangs swim in small schools and broadcast eggs freely in the sea so we won't be breeding them soon. At least I don't think so.
My moorish Idol is happy and healthy and she grew about an inch in the last 5 monthes. Of course I would like to have a pair of them which is the way they live in the sea but my 100 gallon reef is about thirty feet too short for them. I will just have to go back to Tahiti to see more of them. What was said about them is true. They have a personality and some of them just do not adapt to captivity. They require special care and I believe only experienced people should keep them. I think I have enough experience.
Great thread by the way.
Have a great day.
Paul


13094Morish_Idol.jpg
 
overflowing. IN a 300 gallon system i think an idol would be happy. It may not be at first but it would adapt to the system. But I will admit I would rather see them in the ocean picking at corals than in a 8*3*3 tank .
 
David I said said I wasnt going to keep a angel pair. That dont mean i wont keep other pairs :) I plant on a pair of B&W or Onyx CLowns, pair of blood shrimp pair of Yellownose shrimp gobies, and a pair of either sharknose or neon gobies :) I just said i was going to wait on a Angel pair. I love to see fish in pairs. There was a lady in nova soctia that has a pair of Golden Red Sea Butterfly fish in here 300 gallon system those were nice fish.
 
NR- cool :)

Paul B- The idol is one of my favorite fish, I have one that's been doing well in a 125 reef for about 18 months. The tank is a little small I know but I got the fish at about 2-1/2" hoping that it would grow up accostomed to the small space and not stress out. I have seen the behavior of tangs that outgrow their tanks and so I watch the idol for signs of stress, so far at 6-7" he seems just fine. His "buddy" is a pbt purchased the same day, they were both so small I qt'd them together in a ten gallon tank :) The pbt has not grown as large as the idol, I am hoping it is a male which apparantly do not get as large as the females.

Anyway I was wondering if you happened to know of any spawning info on the idols? You saw them traveling in pairs but they may still spawn in groups like other fish making captive breeding unrealistic. OTOH if they spwan as individual pairs it may be more conceivable.

FWIW at the Aquarium in Long Beach, CA, they keep a group (5 or 6) of idols in an outdoor pond dedicated to small sharks, mostly bamboo's and juvie zebra's. I was told they never had any luck keeping them indoors but when they placed some into the pool they flourished. The aquarist I spoke with was convinced that the natural sunlight played a role either by the algae it produced or by somehow allowing for direct sysnthesis of some crucial element within the fish. These idols largely ignore each other, no swimming in pairs and only occasionally crossing paths. No aggression either though, I watched them feed side by side several times. - D
 
One more thing on moorish idols. A local fellow here had a very large reef tank, approx 10' X 6' x 6'. He tried to keep a group of idols (I forget how many, maybe 4-5). It was a disaster with constant brutal fighting the most dominant actually killing at least one fish, they all had to be seperated.
 
David, I would have loved to watch them long enough to see some spawning but you can only stay in Bora Bora until you run out of money so I only had a week of diving with them. The pairs would swim together or rather one would follow the other a few feet behind. They were about 6" like yours. They swam in large arcs maybe a half an acre and there was only a pair on each part of the reef. I did not see the individual pairs get together. I assume them have a section of reef they patrol but as I said I was not down long enough on each dive to witness this.
Here is a shot of the same reef.
Paul
13094butterfly_turtle_tahiti-med.jpg

The turtle would be nice in your reef. She was about 200 lbs and is named Clemintine. She just wanted to play and be hugged.
 
I'm been reading this thread with considerable interest and would like to try some pair/groups in a new tank. I'm trying to decide on a suitable size tank. For the following fish, what size tank would people suggest:

1) Flame angel X 4: Centropyge loriculus
2) Assessor (pair): either Assessor flavissimus OR Assessor macneilli (These seem hard to get in Canada)
3) Bangaii Cardinal (Pair): Pterapogon kauderni
4) Algae Blenny (just 1): Salarias fasciatus

An alternative to the Assessor (if I can't find them) would be a small harem of flasher wrasse but I'm not sure which type would be best with the angels.

Very much in the planning stage but opinions appreciated.
 
The material I've been able to find about Brad Ward's flame angel harem said that he kept 6 of them in a 120G tank.
 
Brad had 6 Flame in a 120 g. They were exceptional. He also have a harem of bar gobies in that SPS dominated tank and a few other fishes including one or two tangs (I can't remember the exact number of the gobies and the tangs)
Minh
 
You can keep 4 flame angels in a 75gal tank too but watching them wouldnt be as joyful as a 180gal IMO. Because hareming fish are the ones that share the same territory and in a big tank you can watch how they behave in and out of their territory. Instead of a assessors, you can go with a harem of sixline wrasses.
PS: If I were you I would take the lawnmover off the list and go with a tang (sure if you go with a big tank) because an active fish will keep the fish in the harem together.
 
Yes, I would want a 6' tank for sure, even a 125 but when you consider the differance in cost you might as well go for the 180. The usual arguement is that you are going to have the same lights and filtration either way so you might as well get the added depth of the 180.

As for the fairy wrasses, the hard part (here at least) is getting the females. They mostly import males because the color is better and most people just buy one. Females are very hard to come by.
 
Firefish, Royal Gramma, Banggai Cardinals, Orchid Dottybacks, Clowns, Shrimp Gobies, Yellowhead Jawfish, Cherub angels, Yellow tail damsels,...
These fishes, I have personally keep and feel that they will do well in a 46 g tank. Not all of them at once but perhaps three pairs. They will get along well with each other.
 
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