Keeping SPS is soooo hard and expensive! Thinking about quitting after 2 years.

[kenpau]

There is a hell of a lot of information in this thread! Kurfer do you ever get the feeling you've opened the door into the abyss?!!
Hopefully you can wade through all the good, bad, indifferent and argumentative comments and come up with a simple plan to try and resolve your problem.
Keep us posted with any testing, maintenance and equipment changes you do, I'm very interested to see what works here.

Paul

 

[steventaylor702]

There is a hell of a lot of information in this thread! Kurfer do you ever get the feeling you've opened the door into the abyss?!!
Hopefully you can wade through all the good, bad, indifferent and argumentative comments and come up with a simple plan to try and resolve your problem.
Keep us posted with any testing, maintenance and equipment changes you do, I'm very interested to see what works here.

Paul

Lol anytime you ask for answers on forms it's like opening Pandora's box or opening the flood gates just got to fight through it and try and take the information that's good and pertains to your specific situation and use it. Good luck to the op I hope you can get things figured out it sucks watching your master piece falling apart but it is reversible just got to pin point the problem

 

[IHOP]

My opinion is keep it simple. I was having a lot of issues with my setup. I took a step back and have only been doing a water change every 3 weeks and my tank is thriving. Sometimes I think you just need to let things be and it figures itself out.

 

[CStrickland]

I wouldn't rely on pool test strips myself because I don't think they would be calibrated to show presence of Cl at the levels that would be detrimental to a tank, since they are manufactured to help people achieve levels that are quite high, with a pretty wide range of acceptability compared to a tank. Pools run 1-4 ppm, I think that test range is way above tank levels. But I guess if it reports 2ppm then you know what the problem is, like how those thermometers you stick on the glass can tell you if your water's way too cold, but not if its the right temp.

A couple posters mentioned the triton test a few pages ago, I think this might be a good situation for something like that. Their methods are not undisputed, but if op is thinking there is some hidden factor in the water the $50 to get a full panel might be a good option. If some weird element is out of whack, you've saved a lot of hassle testing individually, and if it's all clear, you've put to bed a lot of speculation.

Triton doesn't look for chlorine, but they test these:

The elements being tested for include Na, Ca, Mg, K, Sr, B, Br, S, Li, Be, Ba, Ti, V, Cr, Mn, Fe, Co, Ni, Cu, Zn, Al, Si, As, Sb, Sn, Cd, Se, Mo, Hg, P (PO4), Pb, I.

Sorry if I missed a post about the triton test, I think it just got mentioned a few times and then the threads focus shifted.

 

[beeker]

I have always been a bigger fan of Barebottom setups, i had sand in my 20gH the first tank i set up and was told just to get sand cleaning inverts and it would be fine, turns out not siphoning the sand and or replacing have to 1/3 of it every 6 months to a year makes the sand bed leach the nitrate back into the water coolum it took me my first 6 months of keeping a reef to figure out that it was the sand, my 20gH always had 50ppm of nitrate even after a 10g water change

 

[spkennyva]

the flow of Pi needs to be out of the coral, not into the coral. when the Pi flow is into the coral we have problems. the corals need to be in charge. they take in food. their waste feeds the zoax, then any left over is released back into the water column. when we do not feed, the zoax becomes in charge and the Pi is going into the coral from the water column. the coral is not getting the nutrition it needs.

Does this apply to purely SPS tanks too? I wasn't aware that everyone feeds their SPS or that SPS are active feeders.

 

[Cyberdude]

Word for word. Been in the same boat for two years. Params all good but rtn. Upgraded lights to hydra 52. Rtn. Removed gfo for a month. Started to see recovery. Turned down lights 15%. More recovery. Turned down skimming. Growth Explosion in just a few days. It like the entire tank woke up.

Two weeks ago


Today. Skimmer lowered to dry skimming for one week.


Been gaining several millimeters of encrusting a day!!! I'm pumped again!!!

 

[PhaneSoul]

Word for word. Been in the same boat for two years. Params all good but rtn. Upgraded lights to hydra 52. Rtn. Removed gfo for a month. Started to see recovery. Turned down lights 15%. More recovery. Turned down skimming. Growth Explosion in just a few days. It like the entire tank woke up.

Two weeks ago
View attachment 309502

Today. Skimmer lowered to dry skimming for one week.
View attachment 309503

Been gaining several millimeters of encrusting a day!!! I'm pumped again!!!

how do you think those changes affected your coral?

 

[Cyberdude]

More nutrients, more zoanth production with less light. Less light stress.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Does this apply to purely SPS tanks too? I wasn't aware that everyone feeds their SPS or that SPS are active feeders.

Many SPS are very active feeders, especially Acropora and the like. The polyps might be small, but they are typically many and can do a lot of work!

Our photosynthetic corals are 'mixotrophic', which simply means that they can acquire nutrients in various ways. How they 'feed' depends on the conditions. In a pristine reef setting with extremely low nutrient levels in the water, they rely mainly on sunlight and macro, as well as micro organisms (benthic and pelagic). Many SPS thive in these environments. In conditions where nutrients in the water column are more abundant, they can directly absorb these nutrients to a greater extent, which then augment the capture of any small organisms. In our tanks, which are typically richer in dissolved nutrients than a pristine oceanic reef, SPS don't 'need' to be fed food stuffs directly by the aquarist since they can process the nutrients from fish wastes as well as capture small creatures, especially eggs and larvae, from the various creatures in the tank. But, many SPS keepers do feed their SPS to ensure enhanced color and growth.

I'll let Reef'in Dude explain why the oligotrophic (nutrient poor water) condition is preferable for SPS

 

[CStrickland]

I'll let Reef'in Dude explain why the oligotrophic (nutrient poor water) condition is preferable for SPS

If anyone is too impatient for G, Randy does a pretty good job here:

This inhibition of calcification takes place at concentrations frequently attained in reef aquaria, and may begin at levels below those detectable by hobby test kits. For example, one research group found that long-term enrichment of phosphate (0.19 ppm; maintained for three hours per day) on a natural patch reef on the Great Barrier Reef inhibited overall coral calcification by 43%.6 A second team found effects in several Acropora species at similar concentrations.8

~[RHF: Phosphates and the Reef Aquarium]

ETA I can't ever remember which, but SPS either like organic or inorganic phos. The first S is for Small, but also for Special.

 

[PhaneSoul]

More nutrients, more zoanth production with less light. Less light stress.

this puts the zoox in charge. there is potential for the zoox to over produce and poison the coral with o2 production this way, it also goes back to what G said about if the coral feeds off the zoox then it will not get all the nutrients it needs.

the way you describe what you did to fix the situation leads me to believe you were not providing enough organics to the coral in the first place. But I may be wrong on that.

or I could be wrong on this whole post, but that's what im understanding thus far

 

[machodik]

Keeping SPS is soooo hard and expensive! Thinking about quitting after 2 years.

Before I go to SPS , I have make a lot of effort to lowered my nutrient , i recalled my No3 was about 5 or 10 ppm and u Po4 stay at 0.25 ppm and due to my understanding that SPS need clean water so I set up Biopellet and GFO and that make My present No3 undetectable while Po4 ranges between 0.03 to 0.11 at most . Wow! This post now bothered me as it means I have to dismantle my Biopellet and GFO and let the nutrient goes beyond what the normal level we all known for years .

My SPS only suffering based or partly STN but most are alive except that polyps is not opening up yet . I just starting to raised SPS for couple of months now.

So , should I or shouldn't I removed all this equipment and let no3 and po4 went high ? This is the questions !

 

[Reefer54]

Before I go to SPS , I have make a lot of effort to lowered my nutrient , i recalled my No3 was about 5 or 10 ppm and u Po4 stay at 0.25 ppm and due to my understanding that SPS need clean water so I set up Biopellet and GFO and that make My present No3 undetectable while Po4 ranges between 0.03 to 0.11 at most . Wow! This post now bothered me as it means I have to dismantle my Biopellet and GFO and let the nutrient goes beyond what the normal level we all known for years .

My SPS only suffering based or partly STN but most are alive except that polyps is not opening up yet . I just starting to raised SPS for couple of months now.

So , should I or shouldn't I removed all this equipment and let no3 and po4 went high ? This is the questions !

Each tank is different. You may have to just find what works best for your particular tank and inhabitants. I know others here say it a lot: you may have to settle for or promote what does best in your system. Phane brings up a good point about what a lot of the TOTM have in common earlier in this thread...... look it up. You will see LOTS of tanks that run ulns and are very successful.....you will also find a relative amount of systems that have similar success with totally different parameters. Personally, i believe in flow and STABLE quality of water, not necessarily levels; levels are not a golden rule, clearly. And of course, proper light.

**no all cap words were intended as loud, just stressed.

 

[dkeller_nc]

My present No3 undetectable while Po4 ranges between 0.03 to 0.11 at most . Wow! This post now bothered me as it means I have to dismantle my Biopellet and GFO and let the nutrient goes beyond what the normal level we all known for years .

While I don't personally care for bio-pellets because of the poor control of dissolution (I much prefer liquid-based carbon dosing - i.e., vinegar), I'd suggest extreme caution in making big changes to your tank based on a forum post. There are many tanks that have thriving SPS populations that grow like weeds and have relatively high dissolved nutrient content, and there are also quite a number of tanks with thriving SPS populations that low to undetectable phosphate and/or nitrate in the tank water.

A great example that should make one suspicious about claims that low to undetectable inorganic nutrients are necessary for good SPS health is here. The author wrote an article about this question here.

Conversely, there are also plenty of tanks with very good SPS growth and color where the tank water's phosphate and nitrate concentrations consistently test as "undetectable". My own 20 gallon nano is an example of this type of tank.

There are also plenty of posts in the SPS keepers forum about folks that very aggressively lowered their dissolved phosphate and nitrate with GFO and/or carbon dosing that suffered bleaching and coral losses as a result. But if you read these posts carefully, it's not so much the low levels of the dissolved nutrients, but the rapid change from high to low.

Many, if not most, of the more experienced members on the SPS keepers section would advise you to keep dissolved nutrients low, but not undetectable. The general rule of thumb cited is keeping nitrates in the 5 ppm range, and phosphate in the 0.03 -0.05 ppm range. The principal reason for keeping these nutrients low isn't coral health - SPS corals in particular do very, very well in tanks with fairly high phosphate and nitrate concentrations in the tank water. However, high water concentrations of these nutrients can cause real algae control problems. In tanks with lots of herbivores and attentive removal/pruning of algae that the herbivores won't eat, this algae growth doesn't lead to issues. But for many of us whose tank's aren't stocked that way, keeping the dissolved nutrients quite low holds the algae in check.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

Does this apply to purely SPS tanks too? I wasn't aware that everyone feeds their SPS or that SPS are active feeders.

actually, what i am saying applies more to SPS than softies. with LPS being the real feeders. softies do not have photosynthetic issues when feeding on water column Pi like SPS do.

Word for word. Been in the same boat for two years. Params all good but rtn. Upgraded lights to hydra 52. Rtn. Removed gfo for a month. Started to see recovery. Turned down lights 15%. More recovery. Turned down skimming. Growth Explosion in just a few days. It like the entire tank woke up.

Two weeks ago
View attachment 309502

Today. Skimmer lowered to dry skimming for one week.
View attachment 309503

Been gaining several millimeters of encrusting a day!!! I'm pumped again!!!

watch what happens if you feed more. are you feeding blender mush or store bought equivalent?

More nutrients, more zoanth production with less light. Less light stress.

we need to be careful with the word nutrient. yes, more nutrients, but we need more organic nutrients not inorganic. skimming less does provide more of each. removes less organic, which in turn allows less inorganic to be produced.

Many SPS are very active feeders, especially Acropora and the like. The polyps might be small, but they are typically many and can do a lot of work!

Our photosynthetic corals are 'mixotrophic', which simply means that they can acquire nutrients in various ways. How they 'feed' depends on the conditions. In a pristine reef setting with extremely low nutrient levels in the water, they rely mainly on sunlight and macro, as well as micro organisms (benthic and pelagic). Many SPS thive in these environments. In conditions where nutrients in the water column are more abundant, they can directly absorb these nutrients to a greater extent, which then augment the capture of any small organisms. In our tanks, which are typically richer in dissolved nutrients than a pristine oceanic reef, SPS don't 'need' to be fed food stuffs directly by the aquarist since they can process the nutrients from fish wastes as well as capture small creatures, especially eggs and larvae, from the various creatures in the tank. But, many SPS keepers do feed their SPS to ensure enhanced color and growth.

I'll let Reef'in Dude explain why the oligotrophic (nutrient poor water) condition is preferable for SPS

in pristine conditions the corals feed on plankton. when pristine is used it is talking about the lack of availability of inorganic nutrients, not organic nutrients. pristine reefs have plenty of organically available nutrients on every incoming tide. this is where we loose our way. we are not feeding the corals as much. yes, the corals can live ok on just the nutrients produced by the zoax, but they do not get all of the nutrients.

fish wastes are still animal wastes. yes, it feeds the zoax, but it does not give the coral animal itself all of the nutrients it needs from acquiring plankton, or high quality food source. waste is not a high quality food source.

While I don't personally care for bio-pellets because of the poor control of dissolution (I much prefer liquid-based carbon dosing - i.e., vinegar), I'd suggest extreme caution in making big changes to your tank based on a forum post. There are many tanks that have thriving SPS populations that grow like weeds and have relatively high dissolved nutrient content, and there are also quite a number of tanks with thriving SPS populations that low to undetectable phosphate and/or nitrate in the tank water.

A great example that should make one suspicious about claims that low to undetectable inorganic nutrients are necessary for good SPS health is here. The author wrote an article about this question here.

Conversely, there are also plenty of tanks with very good SPS growth and color where the tank water's phosphate and nitrate concentrations consistently test as "undetectable". My own 20 gallon nano is an example of this type of tank.

There are also plenty of posts in the SPS keepers forum about folks that very aggressively lowered their dissolved phosphate and nitrate with GFO and/or carbon dosing that suffered bleaching and coral losses as a result. But if you read these posts carefully, it's not so much the low levels of the dissolved nutrients, but the rapid change from high to low.

Many, if not most, of the more experienced members on the SPS keepers section would advise you to keep dissolved nutrients low, but not undetectable. The general rule of thumb cited is keeping nitrates in the 5 ppm range, and phosphate in the 0.03 -0.05 ppm range. The principal reason for keeping these nutrients low isn't coral health - SPS corals in particular do very, very well in tanks with fairly high phosphate and nitrate concentrations in the tank water. However, high water concentrations of these nutrients can cause real algae control problems. In tanks with lots of herbivores and attentive removal/pruning of algae that the herbivores won't eat, this algae growth doesn't lead to issues. But for many of us whose tank's aren't stocked that way, keeping the dissolved nutrients quite low holds the algae in check.

it is a catch 22 describing what is going on here. if you tell everyone, just feed the tank like crazy, to keep the corals in charge, you do run up the total nutrients in the system quickly and eventually the system will crash eutrophically. it is usually safer to encourage people to remove the waste organic material quickly. eventually the inorganic nutrients will be lower than the amount of food going in and all is good. if people are so fixated on keeping the testable nutrients to ultra low levels by not feeding and striping the water column using the various after the fact P removers, than this is just as bad. ignoring the balance needed with more organic nutrients, than inorganic nutrients.

corals will excrete any unwanted nutrients that the zoax can not handle. just more animal waste. as long as the zoax do not need additional inorganic nutrients from the water column, all is good, and the system itself can have some ridiculously high inorganic nutrient levels.

if we do not feed the corals enough. the coral will need the nutrients provided from the zoax. this puts the corals in a tight spot. they need all of the zoax they can have, but to many zoax produces high O2 levels in the coral, causing poisoning. the coral can either block more light using the proteins, or kick some of them out. this will however provide less food for the coral.

G~

 

[Cyberdude]

Great thread! My issue seems to clearly have been too much nutrient export. I've got 7 fish and feed three times a day. Started this regime jan 1 when all else has failed. It helped a little. My export was still way to high. I kept reading more export, more pristine the water, more water changes, more gfo, more skimming you get the idea. Even though I can clearly see my fish crapping all over my coral they were still in slow decline. I'll post pictures later but I had a birds nest stn at about 50% of the frag. I fragged the frag and left the original stn piece intact. In a week it was fully recovered and begun to grow.

 

[Av8bluewater]

Seems like your doing things right. How far off the water are your lights ? Do you know the PAR just incase its too much light. That probably wouldn't kill those corals but if they're bleaching it won't help.
Consider sending a water sample to unique corals for a test. Could be high metals. Do you know if your city uses chloramines? Look into that and if not already get a chloramine removing RODI system.
One time I left my backwash valve open on my RO unit and started to have some problems.
Also do you have any coral dips ? Dip something and do a good inspection for pesty creatures. Red bugs, AEfW and red planaria. any known pests?

 

[dkeller_nc]

So , should I or shouldn't I removed all this equipment and let no3 and po4 went high ? This is the questions !

Ignoring the speculation on the thread about the fundamentals of coral biology, some of which strongly contradicts research by scientists, let me summarize: be very careful about making rapid changes in your tank based on forum posts alone. If you're trying to solve a specific problem in your tank, then asking questions on the forum can be very useful, but even then you should do a lot of reading on multiple different threads related to the problem you're having to synthesize what will be worth trying.

Keep this mantra in mind: nothing good happens quickly in a reef tank, so be cautious with radical changes to equipment or husbandry.

 

[PhaneSoul]

Great thread! My issue seems to clearly have been too much nutrient export. I've got 7 fish and feed three times a day. Started this regime jan 1 when all else has failed. It helped a little. My export was still way to high. I kept reading more export, more pristine the water, more water changes, more gfo, more skimming you get the idea. Even though I can clearly see my fish crapping all over my coral they were still in slow decline. I'll post pictures later but I had a birds nest stn at about 50% of the frag. I fragged the frag and left the original stn piece intact. In a week it was fully recovered and begun to grow.

Are you pushing nutrient removal or Detritus removal? Try spot feeding your sps for a month or so

Ignoring the speculation on the thread about the fundamentals of coral biology, some of which strongly contradicts research by scientists, let me summarize: be very careful about making rapid changes in your tank based on forum posts alone. If you're trying to solve a specific problem in your tank, then asking questions on the forum can be very useful, but even then you should do a lot of reading on multiple different threads related to the problem you're having to synthesize what will be worth trying.

Keep this mantra in mind: nothing good happens quickly in a reef tank, so be cautious with radical changes to equipment or husbandry.

Which speculation would that be? And which scientific studies? As much as getting on a forum and asking a bunch of people the same question and drawing your own conclusion might be easy, I'm ine to believe in scientific data on top of others experiences, drawing conclusions and trying to recognize the differences in the systems.