Killing the Cannister Filter Myth

[ninjafish]

Hello all,
If there is one thing that I can contribute to this hobby, it is putting an end to the phrase "canister filters are not for SW" or "they are nitrate factories".
Some nights I lie awake in bed thinking about all the nano tanks I've seen that would have been really nice if they didn't have a crummy little hang-on filter that has been stuffed with 3/4 of a lb of LR rubble, with a powerhead crammed beside it for extra flow.

The origin of the CF Myth
A canister filter will add nitrates to the water if:
1) You run it with all the crappy filter media and floss that's usually included.
AND
2) You don't clean the filter media properly.

But what if you filled the canister filter with LR rubble (and in my case, chaeto) like you do with your hang-on?
How is that any different? It is different - it's better:
1) the canister filter will hold many times more LR = better filtration capacity
2) will provide more flow, eliminating the need for extra powerheads
3) only the intake and outlets visible in the tank, making the display look much cleaner.

Please pass this on the next time you hear someone say 'canister filters aren't for saltwater'.

Without a canister filter, this tank would not have been possible:
http://www.truenorthreef.com/PicoMovie.wmv

Good luck out there,

- Chad

 

[dragon_slayer]

Re: Killing the Cannister Filter Myth

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9471331#post9471331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ninjafish
...............But what if you filled the canister filter with LR rubble (and in my case, chaeto) like you do with your hang-on? ...........

well there is no doubt that filling it with live rock rubble gives you allot of surface area for nitrifying bacteria to collanate and do the break down all the way to NO3, but there are no low oxygen areas in the rubble with that constant flow of water into the canister filter so there will be no reduction of NO3 and you Will get elevated levels in the system.

now if you stuck Chaeto into the canister you'd be putting it a photosynthetic algae into a no light environment and it would die and when it did it would release nutrients into the system further contributing to poor water quality.......

what part of that is it you aren't grasping??

kc

 

[ninjafish]

kc,

Haha, someone didn't watch the video link I provided.
I added submersible lights to my canister so that my photosynthetic algae wasn't in a no light environment .
Now that's a little bit advanced, and I wasn't suggesting everyone should do that, merely that a canister filter will provide far superiour filtration (and better looks) to the tiny hang on filters that seem to be favoured here in the nano side of the hobby.

And no hard feelings about the 'grasping comment', if I had a nickle for every time I myself jumped to comclusions...

Cheers,
- Chad

 

[dragon_slayer]

even with the lighting for the macro algae you're still elevating the NO3 levels by using the LR rubble in the canister........

most people use a HOB refuge because it not only provides filtration it also provides microfauna life to the tank. on the cubes that have all 4 sides viewable the canister is a good way to have an 'out of sight' circulation for the tank, but a closed loop is an even better way to get that.

kc

 

[ninjafish]

KC,
I have never heard the argument for LESS LR and less filtration as a way to reduce NO3. ???
What do you think will happen without that filtration? The nitrifying bacteria are just breaking down ammonia - if you don't filter your water, sure you may never make it to NO3 - you will will be stuck at NH3 which is way worse! That is the whole reason why we filter our tanks in the first place.
You seem to be making the argument for low oxygen or anaerobic filtration - which I seriously doubt anyone with a nano tank has anyways! You sure don't achieve that with a hang on.
The DSB guys do - but that has its own risks and, in my opinion, not worth the trouble. Water changes are the way to go.

A couple other things -
How could a closed loop be better? A canister filter is a closed loop - just a closed loop that has the space for more water volume and filtration capacity.

And as for microfauna - I grew pods inside my canister... there's a heck of a lot more room for culturing microfauna in a canister than there is in a hang on. You might be talking about having the microfauna going through the pump - the fear of that is why many people set up over the tank, gravity refugiums - but the articles I've read suggest that the 'pod vs impeller mortality rate is very very low. I have seen 'pods pop up from my return bulkhead - but I've never seen one that's been chopped in half.

If I was suggesting using a canister filter instead of a sump, then ya, that would be crazy. Check out my latest tank build... I have a sump because I believe that is king. All I am suggesting is using a canister filter instead of the little HOB ones that people use on their nanos - and there is no valid argument against that. Whatever the HOB filter does, the canister will do better.


- Chad

 

[ccorpse27]

Neither are true closed loops anyway. That's misuse of the term. Essentially all you created is a self contained sump/refugium with a built in pump. That's it. Sure it's creative but you're not dispelling any myths whatsoever.

 

[ninjafish]

ccorpse,
My mods aren't what the thread is about. The thread, in the nano forum, is pointing out that while many nano users view HOB filters as their only choice for filtration, a cannister filter will provide more filtration, more circulation, more water volume, and look better while it's at it.
I believe that more people would use canisters if they weren't always being told that "canisters are not for SW". This myth is wat I am trying to dispel - actually they are ideally suited for nano tanks.
I don't know what you think a closed loop is, but a cannister filter is a closed loop of plumbing that uses a pump to draw water out of the tank with one hose and blow it back into the tank with the other. It is a closed loop just like any other closed loop - it just has a bulge in the middle of the plumbing. HTH

- Chad

 

[Driftwood]

I think you are absolutely correct in your statements. If you remove the media from a canister filter and replace with LR then you will be fine. Just be sure to check it every week or so to be sure no junk is building up in the rubble.

Removing the media from a canister and putting in LR is no different then removing the media from a hang on and putting in LR... Duh.

By the way I LOVE your pico tank! It looks like a little cube of the ocean was cut out and placed on your desk.

Dave

 

[BCreefmaker]

humm sounds good, i was looking for something that would covertly filter a pico im planning. how exactly do you ave it set up? just to play devils advocate the only real diffence i see is that a HOB fuge helps with gas exchange and surface agitation.

 

[murfman]

I'd rather use Siporax beads instead of lr rubble for something that small.

 

[Jeff]

I liked the video except for the chick music. It made me moody and nervous

Jeff

 

[dragon_slayer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9474706#post9474706 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Driftwood
........If you remove the media from a canister filter and replace with LR then you will be fine.

No, bio media in a canister filter and LR are the same thing just in most cases the LR already has the bacteria colonized but the media will self populate in a very short time.

nowhere did i argue that a canister filter can't be used, but no two ways around it, it's going to elevate NO3 levels in the system and in most nano tanks water changes are main means of filtration and water quality control.

the whole point of the original post was that I'm busting the myth that canister filters are nitrate factories!!! and that just hasn't happened. all that was accomplished was the HOB fuge was removed and substituted for an out of site 'closed loop' that still produces elevated NO3 levels and you're still going to be in need of water changes to keep the water quality pristine.

kc

 

[ninjafish]

Thanks Dave,
For a second there I was starting to think that either I, or the whole world had gone insane.

Murf,
I have never even heard of Siporax beads... will have to look into it thanks!

BCreefmaker,
With my setup I had the cannister filter plumbed to bulkheads in the bottom of the tank - inside the cannister filter I had LR and chaeto growing under the submersible lights. I also put a 50w heater inside the canister just to keep the temp up.
In one of the return lines, I had a tee fitting which connected to a topoff pump that injected ro/di water directly into the line.

Engine 7,
LOL is all I can say. And I do agree - the title of the song just fit so well with the theme that I went ahead even though I knew I would catch heat over it .

- Chad

 

[ninjafish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9475919#post9475919 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dragon_slayer
No, bio media in a canister filter and LR are the same thing just in most cases the LR already has the bacteria colonized but the media will self populate in a very short time.

nowhere did i argue that a canister filter can't be used, but no two ways around it, it's going to elevate NO3 levels in the system and in most nano tanks water changes are main means of filtration and water quality control.

the whole point of the original post was that I'm busting the myth that canister filters are nitrate factories!!! and that just hasn't happened. all that was accomplished was the HOB fuge was removed and substituted for an out of site 'closed loop' that still produces elevated NO3 levels and you're still going to be in need of water changes to keep the water quality pristine.

kc

Sorry brother I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this one. If you followed your line of logic, and adding LR to a system actually increases nitrates - then reducing the amount of LR will reduce nitrate levels... should we remove it altogether?
The nitrate doesn't come from the LR - adding more will not increase NO3 levels - it comes from detritus and fish waste. Unless you have an anerobic filter method - which very few people have (and I would guess no one in the nano forum where this thread was intended) - the only way to reduce existant nitrates is through binding them in plant tissues and water changes. If you really want to reduce the amounts, you have to reduce the amount of source waste introduced to the system (eg reducing bioload, feedings).
What ever that waste is - you are not going to increase the amount of nitrates by adding more LR. All other things being equal - a tank with 20lbs of LR will have better water than a tank with only 5lbs... until today I thought that was a universally accepted fact.
The problem with the cannister filter myth is that few people really understand why they allegedly add to nitrates - it is not because they provide increased filtration which elevates the levels as you have suggested. It is because, with conventional media they can trap fish waste and detritus that could have otherwise been removed before they it had a chance to decompose. Trapped in an uncleaned filter they break down and that source waste enters the nitrogen cycle and adds to water pollution. Just like a wet/dry filter - they aren't called "nitrate factories" when they are clean and colonized with bacteria - the problems occur when the bioballs trap solid waste that inturn pollutes the water.
A clean functioning filter will not add to the nitrate problem in an aquarium, that is why we use filters....
I don't know how I can summarize this any better for you. If I have X amount of waste in my system - adding LR will not increase the pollution in the tank - in fact, it will increase the tanks ability to process the waste that is already present.

A filter will make your water better.
LR is good for your tank.

- Chad

 

[dragon_slayer]

YES if you fill a system with LR rubble and then have high flow across that rubble, you'll get elevated NO3 levels in the system. your canister filter with the rubble in it is just a sized down tank with high flow across small rocks and it is very efficient at breaking down organics all the way to NO3 but that's the end of the line. in large tanks the rocks are large enough they have anaerobic area inside the rocks that support denitrifying bacteria.

my apologies that you can't see the forest for the trees blocking your view.

kc

EDIT: on the comment:

The nitrate doesn't come from the LR - adding more will not increase NO3 levels - it comes from detritus and fish waste.

no, the bacteria on the surface area of the LR is what's breaking down the 'waste' and with there being nothing to finish the cycle you have NO3 as a byproduct left in the system, without those bacteria the detritus and fish waste wouldn't go through the 'Nitrogen Cycle'

 

[ninjafish]

kc,

Hey I don't want to fight with you.

The "what part of that is it you aren't grasping??" and the "my apologies that you can't see the forest for the trees blocking your view" comments seem like things are getting a little heated.

If you are really arguing against using LR or saying that adding more LR to a system will increase NO3, there is nothing more I can say.
It has been fun to have the debate and I wish you all the best in your reefing endeavors.


For any nano owners reading this thread who believe that LR is beneficial to water quality and try to add more of it by putting it in HOB filters (for whatever reason you might have), I would suggest again that a canister filter provides more room for LR and water volume, and is less intrusive in the tank. And that they will not umm cause problems for you as long as you don't use the small gravel and floss that can trap detritus (or that you keep the media clean if you do use it - too much work for most, and hence the myth).

Cheers,

- Chad

 

[dragon_slayer]

well I'm sorry but for the life of me i can't see why you have it in your head that adding live rock to a system and adding rubble to a canister filter are one and the same, they are NOT.

rubble has allot of surface area and when placed in the canister filter it acts no different then any other bio media. adding a 5lb rock has filtering capacity, 5 lbs of rubble does not, how much more simpler can that be explained?

you seam pretty hell bent that you're (in your own words) "Killing the Canister Filter Myth" but again you're only fooling yourself, it's no myth, it's a fact. you can try and twist words around all day trying to make it look as if i said adding LR is of no benefit but anyone with even the slightest intellect can fully understand rubble and LR aren't the same. adding LR to your system is beneficial, adding a canister filter full of rubble is not.

kc

 

[ninjafish]

Hello again kc,
By rubble I just meant pieces of LR that have been broken up to fit inside the canister. As far as surface area, I don't think it makes much of a difference whether the rock is as big as a persons head or as big as a golf ball - LR is porous enough that the bacteria is living all through the rock... not just the edges. This porosity is what contributes to the massive surface area of LR - not just the outside edges. I'm sorry but your last post is the first time you have suggested that there is a difference, filtration wise, between a single piece of LR and multiple, smaller pieces of LR. I have never heard this assertion before and I hope it isn't because I don't have half an intellect. I thought your were saying that LR adds NO3 - I wasn't trying to twist your words. Now you clarified it to state that LR rubble adds NO3. So should people stop using it in their HOB filters too? I don't want to sound like a wise@$$ - I honestly can't see how the bacteria "knows" what sized piece of LR it is on. I can't picture how LR rubble bacteria would process the water differently from bacteria living on 'solid' pieces of LR (which are themselves just larger pieces of broken rocks).

I understand where you are coming from and I can see how it can be confusing.
The bacteria in the LR is what converts waste to nitrates - but that isn't the same thing as saying that LR causes nitrates.
It is confusing but it might help if I give an example - sorry if it is silly but it is the best I can do on short notice.

Garbage trucks are required to convert curbside garbage into landfill waste.

Saying that increasing the amount of LR in a system will increase the amount of NO3 is like saying that increasing the number of garbage trucks will increase the amount of waste in the landfill. The garbage trucks and the LR are the capacity to process the waste - the actual waste comes from the fish and food in the system. Adding LR will not increase NO3, only the system's capacity to process fish poop and detritus - which is converted to NO3 (that's what's got you hung up). The LR can't make NO3 from nothing - it is dependant on the amount of raw waste. If that waste is a fixed amount, you can't keep adding LR to keep increasing your NO3 output - you can't create something from nothing.

Not only does LR not add to nitrates, it actually reduces nitrates. It isn't as efficient at it as a pure anaerobic environment like you suggested, but it still does reduce nitrates. That is why we have LR in our tanks.
Don't believe me? Just read up on LR. Or type "live rock reduce nitrates?" (without the quotes) in google and read what comes up.

To repeat myself for the last time (I hope).

Canister filters have gotten a bad rap as being nitrate factories. I have found this to be a myth and it is likely the result of people running plugged up filters with dirty filter media.
I would like to share with the nanoreefing crowd that a canister filter will provide much better filtration than the HOB filters that most people feel is their only option. To avoid the build up of detritus that has produced this negative stereotype, I recommend just using LR rubble in your media baskets so that the detritus doesn't get trapped and build up.

Summary for anyone who is scratching their head

A cannister filter will be less of an eyesore in a nano tank

A cannister filter will allow for more water volume in the system - that's a good thing in terms of stability and water quality.

A cannister filter will allow more room for LR.

LR is a vital component of water quality.

LR lowers nitrate levels

A cannister filter, properly set up and maintained, will not produce nitrates - it will reduce nitrates.



I have never had to work so hard just to help out my peers

Best regards,

- Chad

 

[AIMFish]

I thought this setup looked familiar, is this a second tank or the original? If it's the original it's been going for a while so end this silly debate and post maintence schedules and water quality readings:thumbsup:

 

[ninjafish]

Hey AIMFish!
Nice to see a familiar face.

The tank ran for a couple years but I got a mantis shrimp for it:
Video

http://www.truenorthreef.com/mantis.wmv

and realized that I should have a larger tank to properly care for the mantis - hence the glass was swapped out for a larger 12" cube as seen in this video:

http://www.truenorthreef.com/newcube.wmv

I have sold the whole thing in order to raise money for a larger system that I can propagate corals with. Some photos on this page:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9468676#post9468676

I just have noticed lately that most new to the forum get a 5gal tank then think "now I have to get a penguin HOB filter and throw LR rubble in it". From my experience I found that a canister is a better option that people should know about when making their decision. I set mine up to be invisible but that isn't necessary. Just put the intake hose in one corner of the tank and the return in the other and you will still have all the benefits that I mentioned.

Cheers mate,

- Chad